Here's fantasy...
... and here's reality.
Numan Parada
Told you it was depressing.
metro.net
[@simone_electra / swilson@laweekly.com / @LAWeeklyNews]
Oh can they please do this....last year when I was there, hoping that train services would be just like here in Melbourne Australia, I was so disappointed that they weren't. I had to spent hundreds of dollars with ripp off prices in taxis with no back seat space at all and one taxi driver, even donged me on the head when closing the boot as I was putting my case in there, caus the stupid arseole forgot to look to see if I had completed the task...mmmm going from The Staples Centre to West Hollywood costs a fortune around 6.00pm too, To & From Airports, have the shuttles, which are good but getting a taxi after going out to a club is very harrowing when you're waiting and waiting in the dark, hoping no one just comes and grabs you offf the streets whilst your there!!! Trains can move heaps of people, the trains here in Melbourne all have security cameras all over them, and personal safety officers have now been introduced on all late services too. Please make this map real..the tourist to your lovely city would certainly appreciate it. LA is so much fun but also expensive!
Interesting how people respond so passionately to "wasteful" spending on mass transit, but remain silent to the fact that billions are spent on new and expanded roadways. This means heavily traveled roadways in Los Angeles continue to deteriorate, while new roads continue to be built in suburban and rural wastelands.
For even more fun and "what ifs" look back at these maps of the rail/trolley lines that dissected the city up until the 1960s. Its just pathetic that the transportation infrastructure of the city, when it's population was well under a third of what is is today, was so far beyond what we have now.http://www.metro.net/about/lib...
LA actually had this public transit paradise -- in 1920! It was called the Pacific Electric Railway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...
An excerpt: "Following these acquisitions Pacific Electric was the largest operator of interurban electric railway passenger service in the world with over 1,000 miles (1,600 km) of track. The system ran to destinations all over Southern California, particularly to the south and east."
For a conspiratorial take on why the railway came to an end, watch Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
5 million people ride the subway ever day in New York City. The reason people drive in LA is because the bus system is slow and inadequate. The most congested areas, like West Hollywood, have no freeway system even close to it. If a subway system was put in more people would use it and sell there cars. Less people would be driving in the congested LA traffic as the rails became popular, and those who don't want to fight the traffic would ride the subways. Eventually LA would lose much of its traffic. Bliss.
As a dream--I like it, Jordan. But the physical geography of NYC and surroundings is what makes the subway work so well. It's all very compact. LA is not. Plus, the subway has been there for what, 70-80 years? The city grew around it. Not so here. It's grown. And one last thing. When people think of putting in a subway here in LA, they want it to mimic what having a car is like. In other words, they want it to go from Redondo to Pasadena. Maybe instead of being seduced into dropping a subway system onto the template of the freeways, it should cover a smaller area but have more branches. In NYC, the subways saturate the city, not the entire urban surrounding area for 40 miles in each direction.... It reaches out to Brooklyn & Queens, but it is not saturated like in the City. Maybe defining where the subway would be would lead to re-defining where the heart & lungs & guts of this city really need to be, and let it grow from that point of origin.
As someone who lives in Brooklyn I love the subway system in NYC. Our system is comprehensive but we still beg out MTA to build new extensions etc. ( we have been waiting over 80 years for subways to run down 2nd avenue and we are only getting a small portion to run there in a few years)
One thing to note however is that although the subway system does saturate when it gets to Manhattan (pretty much every line merges with some other line to run through the island, or at least runs through it for some distance, there is only 1 line that does not go into the city) it still gives great access to people in the Bronx/ Brooklyn/Queens areas. Key thing to remember here is when the subways were built it was to get people from those areas into Manhattan where all the jobs were, the subway companies were not owned by the city then and had a great interest in reaching the outer boroughs because they owned and developed all that land.
The railroads that run from long island (LIRR), westchester/Hudson valley/ Connecticut (Metro North) and New Jersey (NJT) are also a god send for commuters. I used the LIRR for 3 years when I still lived on Long Island, can't imagine commuting by car unless I worked in Queens or somewhere in Nassau/Suffolk, at which point the traffic does get crappy at times but nowhere near as bad as you guys in LA have to deal with.
Our highways are not as built out as LA but they serve their purpose, If Robert Moses built the Lomex and Mid Town Expressway it would have been a help, but those neighborhoods would have been destroyed. He also put a stranglehold on transit oriented development during his reign which is why NYC has never really had any sort of transit expansion since.
I really believe if LA invested a chunk of money and built out a world class transit system, that the city coupled with its massive freeway system could probably have the best transportation network in the US/World (would surpass NYC that's for sure). I really hope you guys get something awesome built out in the future. I still want to visit LA someday so I can see those freeways I have always wanted to.
In the end though I love living in NYC and having the ability to just swipe my metro card and get anywhere in the city without getting my car out. But even if I do take my car out I don't have to travel far to get stuff done, because everything sprouted up close by and urban sprawl is nowhere to be found here.
AND I VOTE FOR A TRULY COMPREHENSIVE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM THROUGHOUT ALL OF LA/SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA- JUST LIKE ANYWHERE ELSE. NO CITIES, NO PATHS, NO AREAS LEFT UNCOVERED! THERE IS NO EXCUSE WHY WE CAN'T WHEN SO MANY OTHER MAJOR AND MINOR CITIES HAVE ALL ACCOMPLISHED IT AND IT WORKS, AND IS SELF SUSTAINING INVESTMENT. LA IS JUST LA-ZY AND FULL OF EXCUSES. PERIOD.
Oh I WISH I WISH I WISH. PLEASE ENGINEERS OF CITY TRANSPORTATION, CAN'T WE MAKE THIS HAPPEN??? Why is LA the only major city- out of so many major and minor cities that all have effective/brilliant public transportation to NOT HAVE ANY?????? (not any true public transportation anyway, like this dream map might suggest?) I really hope and pray this town can get it together for such a system, sooner rather than later... We are pretty archaically behind on this front. And... it would truly transform this town for the better!* Praying to the transportation Gods, one day*
Thanks for leaving San Pedro out of the system, as usual with you Lost Angeles supremecists. SP is the forgotten step-child, as usual. The port moves hundreds of millions into the LA economy, and we get next to nothing in return. Your system includes lots of cities which aren't even IN LA, but not San Pedro or Wilmington. The sooner we seceed from LA, the better
The lack of understanding of Beverly Hills' issue with subway construction underneath their only high school is one thing. To then project a racist, classist, xenophobic mentality as the reason why they don't want the subway is nearly libelous and demonstrates a rather pathetic and lazy pseudo-journalistic mindset.
Beverly Hills voted for Measure R by a 4-1 ratio - especially to support the subway. Then MTA changed the route and it caused a ton of problems for the city that has legitimate concerns about impacts to their school.
Metro NEVER committed to Santa Monica boulevard. That's a misconception by the BH City Council. The studies were not even completed. This has been reiterated by Metro many many many times.
You can complain about how expensive an extensive rail system will cost, but it won't change the fact that it's a necessary investment. Rail and subways cost real money because they're more efficient and reliable. But yeah...let's wait on building rail and subways because it costs so much...and hey sometime in the future it'll be cheaper to build infrastructure like it, right? Oh wait...that's wrong isn't it? The longer we wait to build the more expensive it will cost us in money and political will. Whatever...I still live three blocks from the Gold Line. It only costs me five bucks for a day pass to go to Downtown, Long Beach, Pasadena, East LA, North Hollywood, and Hollywood. Y'all that don't live near the rail can rot in your cars on the freeway!
The people who built the subway systems in NYC and Chicago, London, Berlin, Paris, were a fabled race of ancients who have long since left the planet and taken their knowledge with them. If only we had the technology and know how of pre-1950s man....
Its not that bad now that the Exposition line is going online! April 28th downtown will be connected to USC and Culver City by rail, and in 4 years, it will continue to the ocean in Santa Monica. Here is the map of it now, plus the extension in progress to Santa Monica:
The Get LA Moving map, by Damien Goodmon was a bit more grounded and ambitious: http://glam.fminus.com It's referenced in the same article. I remember taking part in discussions on the blogs and at transit meetings about routing.
Parada and others just drew lines on a map. Goodmon introduced a lot of lines that had already been studied with more that should be like a SFV-SGV connector, Vermont Ave subway, etc.
We should tax the oil, insurance, and tire companies to pay for the whole thing for killing off the red car in the first place.
"Instead of trying to overlay 19th century rail technology on a 21st century city, we should be reinventing the bus system, providing exclusive lanes for buses in places where we need the capacity to move people. That's a whole lot cheaper than building billions of dollars of rail."
I somewhat agree the professor, except for the 19th century technology quip. Cars are 19th century technology too, same with electricity. What would a 21st century city imply?
But Bus Rapid Transit, if it was separated from the streets COMPLETELY, (don't get me started on the orange line and stopping at street lights) with separate stations, that could be like a "subway on wheels" Now if it became popular due to high gas prices, and general disintrest in the car, (youth are not buying as many cars), then perhaps it could go to some sort of rail alternative.
I think one point people are dearly missing is LAs need to have a viable urban corridor.
The immediate need (in my opinion) is to create a subway system that first caters to the more central areas of the west side. Extending the Purple and Red line to La Cienega (not sure if people grasp this), would make an immeasurable difference in the development of LAs urban corridor.
Once that stage has been completed, then (given its success or lack thereof), the consideration ought to be made to expand upon that.
Oh yay, another LA Weekly transit article of transit newbies acting as the authority on transit in LA.
I've seen this map before. Honestly, half the people complaining now would probably be the ones who 5 years ago would have said "Why build mass transit, just buy a car!" Now its "We need mass transit everywhere, only subways, no light rail only subways, why is metro failing us?" Well, honestly LA, you screwed yourself over.
Subways are expensive, but mass transit is a necessity in LA. One minute Angelenos are complaining about transit boondoggles (But Aren't like roads like the free market?) the next they complain about gas prices! traffic! and Why does our city/county fail us?
Honestly, WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES. Our city became a major metropolis during the era of cheap gas and suburban sprawl. In the 1960's The German Monorail Company Alweg offered to build a multi-lane monorail system for free. It was rejected in favor of no transit. There were proposals to save Pacific Electric by turning it into a public entity but that was rejected due to the red scare and fear of socialism.
Just remember, when Obama jams up the westside. We did this to ourselvesWhen it takes 15 minutes just to go over the 405, We did this to ourselvesWhen gas prices get to $8 and u need the car to go to the store, We did this to ourselves
We said numerous times from the late 1940's till 2000's, "WE DON'T WANT MASS TRANSIT, WE WANT TO DRIVE, WHY WOULD ANYONE TAKE IT BESIDES THE POOR? JUST BUY A CAR!"
Don't get me started on Henry Waxman and Zev Yaroslavsky banning tunneling in the 1980's and 1990's, again, we said ""WE DON'T WANT MASS TRANSIT, WE WANT TO DRIVE, WHY WOULD ANYONE TAKE IT BESIDES THE POOR? JUST BUY A CAR!"
LA will catch up, but it will take determination, and eventual need. In the meantime,1. go to metro.net, look at the bus and rail map. Or if you're on the westside, Santa Monica Bus. 2. Find a place that you go to alot, see if theres a bus line that goes by there3. Ride it sometimes
Multi-modal transit is about freedom, the freedom to get places in cheapest way.
Wow that was a mouthful,
From, Regular Transit Rider (Red Line, Gold Line, Busses 180/720/754)
The Metro should also be open 24/7. All trains stop running my 12:30am, so this does not allow it to become a viable alternative to driving when going out at night. I have started a
Facebook group attempting to raise awareness of this issue.https://www.facebook.com/LAMetroAfterH...
A line that connects Culver City and... Glendale? Another line that dead ends in a place no one goes, Pacific Palisades? A Wilshire Boulevard that bends 90 degrees in Westwood and heads south into Santa Monica? Baffling.
Yea, Glendale. You know, the alternative to living in the sh!thole that is the City of LA. With a rail line connecting the two, one can live in a quieter, safer neighborhood in Glendale and work in Culver City (which is already being done, the only difference being that these poor souls endure hours of traffic on a daily basis).
Yea, Glendale. You know...where you can't do anything unless you're the right type of person. Glendale...where the cops will catch you and search you for any and every reason. Aaah....Glendale, an alternative to urban living that's still conveniently close to the greatness that is the City of LA. And if the sh!thole city does not excite you, you can drive to the Americana and have a completely sanitized urban experience.
That's not even "reality" because, in actuality, the "Go Metro" map is showing you all of the lines that aren't even subway. Some are light rail, and some are redicilous bus lanes like the orange line. The actual subway is an actual joke. LA is an international city, with a small town "transit" system. Beyond irresponsible? No. What was in fact "beyond irresponsible" was Firestone, Ford and friends who lifted up the infrastructure to make way for their monopoly. Sure, bus lanes make sense... About as much sense as not allowing anyone else to move into the city. Because in the end, there will be more and more cars, and busses just make the city more congested. Not to mention, the upkeep of those roads from the constant pounding from bearing the weight of a bus full of hefty Angelenos. If you don't ride the bus or, "Metro" on a somewhat regular, and extensive basis, you quite frankly and with all due respect, have no idea what your talking about. A solution was to build something similar to the BART/Muni/AC Transit/VTA and Cal Train models of our Northern California counterparts. Oh that's right, something similar was supposed to be built for LA in the 1960s... Silly me... I suppose I was too concerned with an antiquated technology. Lol peace and blessings to all! :-)
Actually, Light Rail and Bus Rapid Transit can be great, low cost alternatives. The problem is, they get built parts that are at-grade, which means the cross streets.
Ill preface this by saying that I drive a great vehicle and can get around on my own. Ill further add that I think the city and state spend exorbitantly on wasteful causes. HOWEVER, LA's need for a comprehensive subway is simply undeniable.
People suggest bus lanes? That's laughable. Buses, even in their own lanes, have to stop at traffic lights and are bound by the mess we call LA traffic gridlock.
Widen the roads? Great idea. That way in 20 years, we can be back in the situation that we're in now.
The 19th century argument? I'm sorry, but who is paying the professor to say this? Anyone in their right mind knows that's a pitifully stupid argument. The automobile and airplane originate from technology of 100 years ago. Are they outmoded as well?
What don't some people understand? LA lacks viable infrastructure. Name one thriving, global city that is completely void of any usable mode of mass transit...can anybody?
First, what LA needs (before building the "subway to the sea") is to widen the rail system to cover more centrally located areas. Suppose that for the west side, there were 2 lines that extended as far west as La Cienega, that would be an incredible feat for the city. What this would effectively do is promote something LA has always lacked: A viable urban corridor.
It is unquestionable that a thriving urban corridor is virtually impossible with the lack of mass transit. Care to disagree? Great. Name a city of LA's scope with a thriving urban corridor that lacks a comprehensive (or even viable) network of mass transit. Im waiting to see the list...
Sadly, the city and state have wasted exorbitant sums on things we don't need -- and now when it comes to things that are critically essential, the funds aren't there.
I will say that most metro areas pushing for a subway system are simply wasting their money. But in the case of LA, one would need to be blind to not see the pressing need.
Imagine the quality of life that would be brought about with a viable urban corridor? I dare someone to refute that this would be a quality investment for the citizens who live here. An urban corridor (which we lack) is an unquestionable asset to a city. How do any of you folks see this coming about with simply a revamped bus system or widening roads?
Do LA citizens want to continue living in a city where movement is constrained at best and chaotic at worst? Why do some LA citizens believe that the city is best off with scattered pockets of commerce/development as opposed to a fluid urban corridor?
Sadly, it may take half a century (or longer) until LA has the rail infrastructure we need.
In the meantime, we can continue to listen to arguments that anything traced from the 19th century is utterly worthless. In that case, let's stop using electricity too...that's 19th century technology.
What an excellent response!! Plus... If the system is to be modern, efficient and even, dare I say, user friendly, it must be interchangeable. Not sure if this is the right term but basically, I shouldn't have to walk off the train, walk for a few paces to catch the gold line from union station. Or even the red to the blue, or blue to green etc. The system MUST be like the BART. Imagine... Hop on the orange line SUBWAY (through Chandler communities at least) and the same train takes commuters to long beach. No transfer. Just go. Or... Pasadena to redondo. No transfer. This is the way it should be. Even the California High Speed Rail Authority is using BART as a model. And no, I'm not from the Bay. LA born an raised. I just know a good thing when I see one! The infrastructure is there. All the rail lines in LA are standard width, they just need to install a 3rd rail, and change the stations a bit. ALL possible by the way if we fuse public and private funds. It's ALL in the pitch. :-)
Hello Everyone!!!
I think we may have missed the magic window to build a mass transit/subway system back in the 1960's or even 1970's when the cost might have been feasible. Now? How many hundred of billions are we talking about?
Also--that fantasy grid sure looks nice, with a stop in Encino, Reseda, Woodland Hills, for example, but hey, it's still the Valley, it's still LA--If you get off on Reseda & Ventura you are most likely still going to have to deal with the crappy bus system or you will have to walk walk walk. It ain't Manhattan, folks..you aren't 5 blocks from anywhere you want to go once you get back up to the street. And it ain't Frisco, which is cozier and has the cable cars to help shuttle you around. In LA, all the other infrastructure would have to also be augmented, such as the buses. Maybe there could be smaller shuttles that cover defined areas, they don't have to be big monstrosities. And you could show your ticket or card to ride on them, with no additional charge.
And--Can you spell E-A-R-T-H-Q-U-A-K-E ??? How would a shiny utopian subway system fare in a 7.2 quake? Would YOU want to be down there when it hits? I think we could very easily spend all that money and then have it all shook down in less than one minute.
Nope, LA is a massive sprawl with many remote islands within its bounds...There are multiple "central corridors" and points of interest. If it had had a modern urban subway system in place 40-50 years ago,then maybe the city & environs would have grown up around that blueprint. Perhaps that could still happen to some extent, but it would take many decades, perhaps a quarter century to build it and find out.
Widening the freeways is a dead end. It's been done. By the time the job is finished, the freeway needs to be widened again. Yawn.... Last year, though, we had Carmageddon, and wasn't that special? Instead of just widening the freeway for months and months, they just shut the 405 down for the weekend and blew out part of the architecturally sublime Mulholland Bridge to accommodate the wider road. And we all survived without the 405 for 48 hours or so, much to everyone's surprise. What's a historic bridge worth when you can have a couple more lanes and tons more signage? In LA--the bridge stands no chance. Maybe it should have been called Karmageddon....
What more people could try to do is organize their lives around a particular geographic area. If you live in Santa Monica, get a job in Santa Monica or Palms or West LA -- don't get a job in Santa Clarita; if you do, maybe you should move closer. Sounds unrealistic, right? You have a house to sell, or a lease that binds you....But everyone in LA wants freedom and mobility, they don't care if they burn up 120 miles a day round-trip to work and back, 120 miles of gas, rubber, road, and time....All that freedom just feels too good, right??? You can live in Palmdale and work in a posh department store in Century City...how cool is that? But maybe you should just work at the AV Mall instead.
The problem here is attitude and mythology. We used to have train lines, but the corporations tore them up. Auto and tire companies bought them up and sent 'em to the cornfield. That changed the mythology and the attitude: Sprawl became the God, and the city organized accordingly. Sorry, but you can't change out Gods that easily, you can't go back to the time when the City Hall and the Richfield buildings were the tallest ones downtown, folks,and when even Tarzana was "the sticks". So we have car attitude, which lets us buzz all about to propitiate the God of Sprawl.
I sure wish we had a great mass transit system like NYC, Bay Area, Philly, Paris, London, etc. It makes life a lot easier in some ways. But I've lived in NYC, I've carried my two bags of groceries 8 blocks in a snow storm and then up three flights. And then do it all again a few days later...It's a lot easier to put 8 bags in the trunk once a week and zip home in 2 minutes. Does it give me less soul??? Mebbe. But at age 54 I can't do what I did when I was 26, I would fall out on Central Park West and my neighbors would pick up my groceries and take them to their apartment, and let me lay there. I would have to take less soul in this case just to stay alive. My solution has been to live in Valley Village and work in Sylmar; live in Tarzana, work in Chatsworth. When I lived in West Hollywood, I got a job at the bookstore on the corner. When I want to go on an excursion to one of the beautiful stores or food places or the beach, I just hop in my Honda and go. I try to go at off times when I can, or find uncrowded routes. Instead of the freeway, I still tool down Sepulveda or Ventura Blvd and pretend it's 1975 and I just got my first Camaro....
Karmageddon.....yeah!!!!!!
They tried to build a subway where the Orange Line is in the Valley in the 1990s, but communities opposed it, and the politicians fought it. Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky, responding to a sinkhole when constructing the redline helped pass Proposition A in 1998, which made it illegal at the time to use county sales taxes for subway construction. Now he's all about the subways.
Thats why the Orange Line is what it is.
i'd add a subway running roughly the same route as santa monica blvd. the hipster-to-the-sea express.
I don't value the criticism of anyone who doesn't take the bus to everywhere in LA and who don't have a realistic grasp of how crappy our public transportation is. The subways are a great alternative. The racism, xenophobia, downright disgusting sense of entitlement, and classism exuding from Beverly Hills is exactly what's wrong with the LA mentality. The fact that they can regard other human beings as beneath them and not worthy to pass through their pretentious corporate capitalist shopping centers shows you how worthless their argument is and how distorted their mindsets are,,, as if people taking the bus into Beverly Hills aren't already doing the same thing. More rail is something worth investing in. Most people who come to LA think that our public transit is a joke. This is how we cut down on traffic and help get people to where they need to be in a more time-efficient manner.
the amount of money this would cost would make doing this beyond irresponsible.
That same money spent on the roadway system would make for a much better return. The bus system already offers all of these routes.
How many more freeways can possibly be built in LA? The city is starting to reach a density point where it needs a subway system to handle what 10 lane wide freeways are no longer able to handle.
We've far surpassed that density point.
It's more about convincing people to garage their cars more, walk, take public transport and constantly demanding from the city better public transport.
The problem being that it takes literally hours to travel any distance on a bus whereas on a subway you could probably get from anywhere to anywhere in under 45 minutes and most journeys would be 10 mins eg valley to west LA. Imagine! At the moment it can take an hour in a car and more like 2 on the bus. I know, I've done it.
The bus system is simply ineffective, given that people are very attached to their cars and will always prefer driving to taking the bus. You can widen lanes or have special bus lanes, but it will still take an eternity to travel around the city because people will never give up their cars.
Additionally, the claim that rail is an antiquated technology is bogus. Sure, it may be expensive, but it can grow to become a very important investment. Ask the leaders of Paris - I'm sure they are grateful for having spent tons of money on building a metro system that has not only become a symbol of the city but also a necessity for the millions of people that live, work and travel there. The Paris metro passes underneath (and has stations near) the Champs-Elysees, perhaps the richest street in the world, and it is still a gorgeous place even if the "scum" passes underneath. So Beverly Hills needs to get off its high horse.
It is only until Los Angeles builds an adequate and effective subway/metro system that it will truly become a world-class city and improve the lives of its citizens.
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