There are four temples in Southern California.

Lots of churches and other groups supported proposition 8. It seems odd that the Mormon Church is being singled out as a scapegoat. The church didn't even directly participate, it just encouraged its members to do so on their own accord.

Apparently the mormons, and others, were more passionate and generous in favor of Prop 8 than the GLBT community was against it.

Rather than act childishly about the results of the vote, the GLBT should reflect on what they did wrong, and try to perform better in the future. Their behavior in the wake of this vote will certainly backfire.

Gee, it seems odd that the mormons didn't try to physically block gay couples from getting married at courthouses. Instead, they exercised their democratic rights by supporting a constitutional ballot measure.

Supporters of gay marriage had the same opportunity to voice their opinion on the issue at the ballot box.

This reaction to the election outcome is childish and pathetic. "We didn't get out way, so we'll act like thugs."

As with any and every other social justice cause in the history of this country, we will avail ourselves of every single legitimate channel at our disposal until we have secured legal acknowledgment and protection of our equality.

Protests are a legitimate channel, as long as everybody remains peaceful.

Looking at the numbers, their was an almost equal amount of money donated to both sides (approximately $80M each). Even if Mormons donated $20M, another $60M came from other sources.

75% of blacks voted for Prop 8 and nearly 60% of Hispanics (now the largest single group in the state, and predominately Catholic). Why are there no protests in Compton or East LA? So, why focus all of the hate on the Mormons?

Patience, there is a march today that will start in East L.A. and move to the cathedral. Join in and let Cardinal Mahoney know what we think of the Catholic Church imposing thier narrow vies of family and sexuality on the state of California!

Silly gays! Staying invisible like they have all their lives and expecting people to do the right thing and not let their personal religious beliefs dictate their vote to abridge another person's CIVIL RIGHTS. You people just don't get it. If God is almighty then leave the gays to burn in hell according to your Book (by the way, did you know your Book doesn't actually say that? Maybe you should try reading it and THINKING instead of basing it on doctorine from mortals). Your insistence on taking things into your own hands shows precious little faith in God, especially when you are basing your denial of basic civil rights on 4 passages in the Bible. Meanwhile, I'll bet a bunch of you have home loans. Yep- that's a BIG NAUGHTY BAD according to your Book. But you don't listen to that, do you? Just not convenient enough. Hope you haven't had a divorce, adulterers. That is an ABOMINATION! For those Christians out there that voted "NO" on 8, thank you. You represent an example of Christ's love that some people just don't seem to understand. Then again those same people just might be surprised when they meet their maker. Read your Book and understand it before you go around trying to make people live by it in a SECULAR nation (if you don't understand the word "secular", please look that up too). Better yet, why don't you just go get yourselves a little bit of country and start your own big 'ol religious state! Kind of like Iran only for Christians. You can have a pastor (maybe Rick Warren?) serve as the "Ayatollah" (you are, of course, free to change this name to suit your anti-Islamic leanings). Then everyone will HAVE to live your way, by your religion, and- most importantly- your INTERPRETATION of the Bible. You can even bring back stoning! Yay! Isn't that what you want? If not, please explain. And please don't do it here in the United States. It's kind of unAmerican.

The comments here are very mild so far, but others over the past few days have been filled with real hate speech. I've noted that black people have been called niggers and Latinos have been called illegal scum. Tolerance is a 2 way street and the gay community is doing its cause a real disservice in this rage voice it's using.

It went beyond passion. It went to obeisance to a high pressure weekly message of the importance of stomping our rights out of the constitution to secure a place in their divine afterlife... They traded our rights for their souls (their cold, black little souls). Though many Mormons disagreed, this is a message we can send to them that they will hear during their weekly messaging sessions. They won't let us in, Mormons do not allow non-Mormons into temples. For many they will never hear our story and will continue to villify us safely as a distant "other" as "sinners" to demonize.

Craig:

You're damned right we'll get our way or those who stop us will suffer. We're not talking about trivial things here; we're talking about our right to lives our lives the way we want and be treated with respect. You don't respect us, we don't respect you. It's that simple. You call it childish, I call it only fair. What's childish is to spend tens of millions of dollars just to "protect" a word.

It's really weird that the Mormons want people to accept their right to have multiple spouses, and yet can't empathize with a group that just wants ONE spouse.

Does this mean a mormon can't marry his second wife? That's too bad.

A taste of their own medicine is not so great.

Tony - the reason gays are going after the Mormon church is because they teach hate to their members. In fact, they teach their members that homosexuality is a choice - which is not true. No one is keeping them from preaching to their members, but keep it in the church don't force their beliefs on the rest of us. It's not like gay people are going to Salt Lake City trying to convert Mormon boys over! The following is an excerpt describing how Mormons deal with homosexuality. After reading it, hopefully you'll understand a little better why the Mormons are being targeted.
Mormonism does not tolerate gays and lesbians. Any Mormon member that confesses homosexuality is automatically forced to appear in front of Church Courts. These Courts then decide whether the homosexual transgressions merit either excommunication or dis-fellowshipping. Mormons who have practiced homosexual intercourse with the same sex are automatically excommunicated.

The leaders of the Mormon Church teach that a man is a God-Embryo and therefore cannot be born gay. Mormon leaders teach that homosexuals choose their lifestyles. They teach that this choice came about from sinful parents, masturbation, or willful disobedience of the commandments of God. All blame for the sin of homosexuality is placed on the person causing depression, hopelessness and often - suicide.

Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley stated on Larry King Live (December 2004), "We know they have a problem [homosexuals]. We want to help them solve that problem. ...[sic]... The fact is, they have a problem."

During the 1970's the practice of electro-shock therapy was used at the LDS Church owned Brigham Young University. There, homosexuals were electrocuted in an attempt to stop homosexual tendencies.

There are no homosexual Mormons who are in "good standing" with the LDS Church. Homosexuals that are excommunicated are no longer able to participate in any Mormon Church function, including praying, teaching or holding any office. The Mormon priesthood is taken away and all "blessings", rights and Temple privileges are taken away. Excommunicated members are further ostracized in Mormon Sacrament Meetings where they are forbidden to take the Sacramental offerings - or even speak vocally.

Kyle,

It's highly doubtful that there was any electroshock therapy taking place at Brigham Young University. There is no medical school associated with BYU. To my understanding there is a psychology program, but no medical psychiatry program. Please try to back your comments with some facts rather than with hearsay and speculation.

stop, please. My little brother who is not old enough to vote is afraid to go to school because he is Mormon. People are threatening him with physical harm. I know many did not like the outcome but please, spare the innocent. FYI the official Mormon church does not practice polygamy, those that do pervert our ways.

stop, please. My little brother who is not old enough to vote is afraid to go to school because he is Mormon. People are threatening him with physical harm. I know many did not like the outcome but please, spare the innocent. FYI the official Mormon church does not practice polygamy, those that do pervert our ways.

To further preserve traditional marriage in California, there is the development of a new constitutional amendment to ban Mormon marriage during the next election cycle. Mormon marriage is a serious affront to traditional values and God’s plan for man. 1) Most Californians view the Mormon church as a cult; 2) Children are being taught that Mormon marriage is equal to Christian marriage, yet Mormonism has only existed for 150 years; 3) Mormons engaged in polygamy and even defied the United States government’s attempts to stop such behavior; 4) The United States is a Christian nation, and Mormonism is antithetical to Christian values (the 1st Amendment’s Freedom of Religion was designed for Christian religions only); 5) The Mormon church has unfairly used its power and money to influence Californian politics, yet it continues to pay no taxes based on its nonprofit status; 6) The marriage ceremonies are secretive and ban non-Mormon participants from attending. For these and many other reasons, support of this constitutional ban will help to preserve traditional marriage values that have lasted for over 3000 years, but the Mormon Church continues to desecrate.

In California this coming year, you will have the chance to add your name to make sure this proposition qualifies for the ballet box in 2010. Please inform your friends and neighbors about this initiative. All contributions and support will help to make sure true values are preserved in law.

Gary, while I was not at Brigham Young, when I went through exgay therapy for the church, they offered electroshock therapy. That was the moment I chose to quit exgay therapy. I knew someone who went through it though, and he later committed suicide.

It's funny how the gays want to be treated equal, but they want to persecute the Mormon's. I guess they don't really believe in equality do they? They only want what is best for themselves and not for anyone else.

It's too bad so many gays are filled with hatred and violence. They say they believe in God and God loves them. Does God love the hatred in youre heart? And the violence you are commiting against those that are against what you believe? Maybe if you really believed in God you wouldn't be gay to begin with.

It comes down to civil rights, and anger will always be directed toward those who incite people to deny those rights.

It would be worthy to note that legal limitations on marriage such as provided by John (above) have been leveled against Mormons. My parents in the 80s voted on a ballot measure to remove a section of the Idaho State constitution which declared that eternal (mormon) marriages were not recognized in that state. The Mormons ignored the constitution caring more about what God thought of their practices than whether they got certain legal benifits and acceptance from society. Eventually opinion changed and so did the laws, but to those who really care about their beliefs whether they be concerning Christianty or homosexuality don't recquire the rest of the world to condone them or cultivate their views simply because they have them. Most of the homosexuals whom I have had the opportunity to associate with view adding samesex marriage as a kind of marriage an affront to their beliefs about sexual rights and preferences. I am willing to conceed that such is not the majority view or at least not the most vocal view. But I think that homosexuals should learn to know how significant they are as human beings without seeking for a title commonly associated with an religious institution. Insofar as certain civil unions to not measure up to marriage in terms of rights and protections, the laws should be changed. People should have the right to form legal relationships that protect property and other rights, but marriage should remain a religious institution afforded to a man a woman only. I also appreciate those here who have kept their tempers and curb their tongues. It is refreshing to read reasonable commentary and a ache to read tripe.

Er, right. That's why there are so many driveby shootings from those homosexuals in gay Hollywood and other gay enclaves, and not in straight neighborhoods. LOL

David -
So what you're proposing is "separate, but equal"? That worked so well during the Jim Crow era too

There would be no seperation. And should be no seperation. Gay couples should be able to live and work in the say arenas as straight people. I am saying that the legal protections of marriage should be afforded to all people, but that that identity of the institution should remain straight. There is no seperation. I have heard that gay couples are prohibited from being legaly recongized as a unit and afforded the ramificaitons thereof. As human beings they should have those protections. But they do not need to hijack marriage to attain them. Christian churches and other organizations that provide marriage are already seperate but equal. (They are seperate and distinct, but their marriages are recongized. Mormons in Idaho were only equal as of the 80s.) Do gays want to redifine all religion to include their ideas of relationships as universal?

Based on the explination above I would say if we don't recognize Mormon marrages as legal than we should do the same for all churchs. There were no Christian churchs after Christ, for obvious reasons. And the Catholic Church did not come about until after Christianity. Also since Mormon's only comprise of 2% of the population of California and we are not the ones that starte Yes On 8, why are we getting all the heat? Someone who voted No please answere that. I think you people are scared of something.

PROPOSITION 8 AND THE AMERICAN NEGRO

I have been listening to radio, reading to the newspaper, on the internet.
Angered marches on the streets and at churches. Why… ? I heard liberal talk radio host call my religion Voo doo, the commentary was scathing with repudiation and contempt.
But you asked for my support.

What of gay marriage? Since you ask for our opinion.
Blacks voted 70% yes on prop 8
Surprised? I'm not.
Gay marriage is not a civil right.

I find the comparison of Gays and Liberal whites of gay rights to the enslavement, raping, beating, starving segregation, economic disenfranchisement, imprisonment of Blacks, lack of voter rights, ridiculous.

The gay rights movement is trying to equate and steal the legacy of black civil rights movement. We were lynched, water cannoned, jailed, burned out, bombed, dogs attacked us, shot dragged thought the streets. . Or last hired first fired. Chattel slaves, the American constitution said 3/5’s of a human.

Gays can't marry? It's not the same.
I don't recall a Gay movement when my Dad was getting his ass beat by three white men in Texas just for being (Negro) black in America and trying to get a government job.
Now are you asking us to lay down our social, religious world view to embrace your agenda?
Our people did not march or sit in organize for gay marriage. Rev Martin L King, Jr. would have rejected that, he was a gospel preacher.

The Mormon Church, Nights of Columbus and any other group did not fool us, we don't need to be enlighten about the gay life style my brother is gay.
I still voted yes. I don't' find it normal for a man and a man, woman and woman to marry. And I get an opinion and vote.
Black people did not put the prop 8 on the ballot but since they asked us we find the concept of the married gay life style repulsive.

We (Blacks) are members of the AME, CME, Baptist, and Church of God in Christ, Word of Faith Christian fellowships. We believe in the New Testament principle that same sex it’s a homosexual sin. When I see so called church leaders, and politicians express support for gay rights, we know right away they don’t belong to one of the main steam black churches. As a result there is no understating or appreciation of our world view.
Just look at the list of spiritual leaders on the no on 8 campaigns. None of our denominations would equate gay rights to civil rights.
It's against every thing we believe in and our world view clearly expressed its repugnant.

On Sunday our Pastors up around the state stood up in our pulpits declared don't support gay marriage. Guys around the barbershop, girls in the salons conversations flowed the same way. Blacks relate to gays, my brother David is gay, but marriage, Not.... That is not going to change. Adultery is a sin among straights but no new law is being proposed.
Negros were not allowed to marry on the slave plantations for hundreds of years (1600's- mid 1800's). It was illegal for masters to allow slaves a formal marriage if they wanted to. That did not change until after the emancipation proclamation and a Civil war. So we don't take marriage of a man and a woman lightly.
I still drive in parts of Orange CO and have the police follow me like I stole something. (In my S class Mercedes.) I am the CEO of a Law firm, educated, got money and can't get in a preferred Country Club.

No one asks about you about your sexual orientation as soon as you walk into a resort, hotel or restaurant but they give me a look that can kill, here and abroad.

We believe all people should have rights. But don't try to re engineer a institution that's thousands of year old. That is something we just got. I don’t think so. We don’t think it is normal. Same sex any thing.
Call me homophobe, I don’t care.

From our view if you want to do your thing fine just keep it out of our face, with the marriage business. Why not the Union of gays. This is not the same argument as civil rights Obama or not. By the way. No one is preventing you a drink of water in a straight only area.

Elliott
You said it better then anyone. Now maybe we could put an end to this.

This entire article is based on lies. It is shotty journalism and pathetic at best.

You really think that the best place to get information on Mormons is from a "former member"? The person writing this needs to be fired.

If you truly think that Mormons won't cross protest lines to get married you are delusional. All they have to do is walk passed you! You think a few cops on bikes are going to stop them? It's illegal to forbid a member to enter a house of worship.

The gay community is pointing the finger mostly at the Mormons because they know we are right. It is human nature to fear the other side, when you know that side is true. To those silly comments directed towards "our book": we teach from the Bible. Have you read it? It says that homosexuality is wrong. And says nothing in regards to mortgages. In case you are referring to the Book of Mormon, it doesn't say anything about them in there either. Why don't you read it to find out? Are you scared it's true?

So bigotry is okay as long as it is not as bad as what was done to black people?

All your eloquence is for naught. I used to be a small minded bigot, but I received a great education.

I am not gay, but I do not feel threatened by what two consenting adults wish to do.

I wonder how you feel about the fact that inter-racial marriage was thought of as an abomination by your fellow cousins' religious dogma...

Gays = the last group it's okay to be prejudice about.

John, et al.:

First off, I did not attend BYU in the 1970s. I attended WSU in the 1990s, so I cannot say from experience what did or did not transpire there during that time. I'll have to rely on your (and others) experience. Having said that I will pose a question to you: How was the "therapy" offered? Was it a service rendered off site or on campus (campus health services). Keep in mind that "In 1973 homosexuality per se was removed from the DSM-II classification of mental disorders and replaced by the category Sexual Orientation Disturbance. This represented a compromise between the view that preferential homosexuality is invariably a mental disorder and the view that it is merely a normal sexual variant." (Am J Psychiatry 1981; 138:210-215)

Then, the practice of electroshock therapy (NOT electrocution as one post described) was used to treat a plethora of behavioral disorders, including homosexuality. So, it does not surprise me that it was used to "treat" what was then considered a "mental disorder."

the gay community might want to avoid further comparing gay rights struggles to the civil rights movement.

Believe it or not, many blacks find that highly insulting.

If my candidate had just won the most historic presidential election in our nation's history, I'd be celebrating instead of being sore losers

Blacks Americans have endured centuries of inequality before reaching this moment. You might do well to remember that by expressing a bit more appreciation for how far you come rather than what you didn't get.

The only thing I agree with Elliot about is the deepseated homophobia in the african american community. So I think the gay rights movement needs to think through its campaign in light of this. We lost not because of African Americans or Mormons voting against us, but because enough other people were deceived into voting against Prop 8 through the bombardment of fraudulent ads. Remember before the media barrage the majority of Californians were against the proposal. But by pushing all sorts of fake hot buttons about freedom of religion and children's education, things that have nothing to do with Prop 8, we lost the middle group of people. Forget the African Americans and religious fundamentalists. They have every right to vote, and I expect them to keep voting that way. Of course I'm very glad for every single vote we can get out of those communities, but the name of the game is forging a majority. And the low hanging fruit are the large group of people who don't have religious obsessions with gays, but who fell for the lies of the prop 8 campaign. Get the truth to those people, and we win equality, and can all go back to treating each other respectfully.

I don't think the majority of people were against the proposition. I think some people needed to have a clear idea what yes meant. Once they found out they new that was the way to vote. Most people are against same sex marriages. I'm surprised that the vote was so close, but then again this is California, which has the highest population of gays then anywhere else.

I think the worst possible thing that could happen now would be to start a "who has suffered more" battle. The fact is, whenever anyone is denied dignity and equality, we all suffer. Voting Yes on 8 was not a decision that anyone made because of their faith or their skin... it was a decision they made because they decided the homosexual community did not deserve equality. Having said that, the Mormon Church campaigned illegally for Yes on 8. They knew the law, they broke the law, and the punishment must be carried out.

OK, Jeffrey...

So, how did the "Mormon Church" break the law, and what is the specific punishment that must be carried out? I've heard and seen an aweful number of people state that the Mormons or "Mormon Church" broke the law by participating in the democratic process. How did they break the law?

Separation of church and state? Both the US and California Constitutions do not prohibit anybody with a religious affiliation from voting or participating in a campaign. You might say, "what about separation of church and state." Oops. The US Constitution has no such phrase. First Amendment states in its entirety:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" Congress did not establish the "Mormon Church" nor did Mormons break any Federal or State Law to my knowledge. So, would someone out there please enlighten us as to what laws were broke?

So where did that phrase come from that everyone keeps quoting and talking about?

"SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
Was it not Christianity before anything that separated church and state?--L.A"
--The Wisdom of Karl Marx, by Karl Marx, p127.

Know your quotes before you use or allude to them.

Elliot, I respect your history and all that your race has unfortunately suffered. But how can you say that the Bible is against homosexuality because of one verse...I thought the biggest lesson that is repeated throughout the entire book, both old and new testaments, is one of love and acceptance. How can Christians pride themselves on being Christians yet twist the religion to accommodate their prejudices? It just doesn't make sense and seems to go against all that the religion prides itself on.

I'm not sure what the purpose is for gay/lesbian people to want to be married. Is it benefits, or is it "other people have it and I want it for my 'group' too!"? I'm not opposed to them having legal benefits, but I'm one that believes that the purpose of marriage is to make a home with a mother and father to raise children. I am opposed to the gay lifestyle being shoved down my throat. I don't tell you who I'm having sex with, and I don't want to know who you are having sex with.

Gary, here's your answer, according to the Tax Code, quoted "In general, no organization, including a church, may qualify for IRC section 501(c)(3) status if a substantial part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (commonly known as lobbying)." The Mormon church did exactly this by instructing it's members to pay 50% of it's tithes to the Yes on 8 Campaign rather than to the Church directly. The punishment is to lose it's tax exempt status in the US.

The family code in California states that the gay couples have ALL the righst of heterosexual couples. The activists won't tell you this because it hurts their cause but that is the truth of the matter.

I think their protests have actually done more harm than good. Why are people going to be sympathetic with a group that is using force, intimidation and hate to spread their cause?

Interesting, Karen, that you are not outraged over the religious groups who have not only used force, (spiritual) intimidation (and spiritual extortion), and hate to spread their cause...but did so with a viscious mendacity in the their advertising campaign (as I was walking into the polls on Tuesday, I got a robocall from the Yes on 8 people who said Barrack Obama was against marriage equality when he specifically said he was against Prop 8).

But you think that those who have LOST A BASIC RIGHT are acting childish. What would you do if the State decided that it was no longer in the business of confering legality on marriages of any sort - meaning EVERYONE in the State lose access to the benefits offered to couples in the State? You honestly think you would just take that lying down?

Karen - I think you need to educate yourself . Domestic Partnerships do not give same sex couples the same rights, all be it is close but still not the same.

Anyone using a law to try to strip people of their citizenship rights deserve every form of protest they face! I hope these temples -- all over your country -- get picketed every week, regularly!

If they want to prevent their fellow citizens from marrying, let them feel what it's like to have other citizens trying to prevent THEM. Oh, but it's "Don't do as I do, do as I say," isn't it, Mormons??

Meanwhile, strip EVERY church (not just Mormon churches) of their tax exempt status for daring to push a political agenda at their parisioners! How DARE they??

Note to the editor, your picture shows a "chapel" not a temple.

Shari, what’s your source?.

Here is the Letter http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/california-and-same-sex-marriage
that was read to the members of the church asking them to donate times and means, it did not stipulate any specific amount to give. Members of their own free will and judgment gave to the Yes on 8 campaign as their personal circumstances allowed AS PRIVATE CITIZENS. The Church did not use any tithing or other funds to support the campaign, and therefore its tax exempt status cannot be revoked, nor did church representatives act as lobbyists.

Mormons believe (with 52% of other Californians that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and is the fundamental unit of society. The Family: A Proclamation to the World

We live in a democracy, and the democratic process was carried out as intended by our forefathers. If you want laws forced on you move to a communist nation. This is a moral issue not a civil rights issue.

It is ludicrous that Mormons are being singled out on this. Many other religions were involved in supporting Prop 8. The other religions are feeling left out, like their effort isn't being recognized for doing their part.

Why pile it all on the Mormons? I mean it wasn't just them in the pro-prop 8 fight.

Also, what makes you so special that you feel like you can redefine what "marriage" is??? That is rather big of you, don't you think.

What an upsidedown world we are living in.

We are set to fall just as Rome fell.

Actually Jason, our founding fathers would find the current situation abhorrent. The whole point of the Constitution and representative democracy was to ensure that the legislative process was several steps removed from the passions of the mob, and that minorities were guaranteed protection against oppressive majorities. The governing system you seem to favor is mob rule, not what we have. We elect legislators, who, while chosen by the people, are charged with governing the best way they see fit. If you don't like what they've produced, you vote them out. And we have a court system charged with enforcing the Constitution's minority protections. In this instance, the elected legislature voted for gay marriage, and, separately, the court ruled it is a constitutional right. Uniquely, California decided to add an element of mob rule to the process. So, the mormons (and knights of columbus and other hate groups) took advantage of this, fired up the mob with lies about churches being suppressed and kids indoctrinated. Sure enough, the mob ruled, and threw out the results of the democratic process.

And Jody, the mormons have redefined marriage several times, from monogamy to polygamy then to some sort of celestially permanent monogamy that can end in polygamy if the husband had remarried on earth. Things are being redefined all the time, so unless you want to live like the Amish, you'll have to get used to it. Of all the ludicrous arguments against gay marriage, (and they are all ludicrous) the definitional one is the argument of choice for the intellectually lazy. And your Rome analogy doesn't make any sense, as there was no gay marriage. In fact, Rome was supremely powerful until it became Christian, at which point it began its steep decline into oblivion. So you may be right that we will fall like Rome, but it's because we've given up reason and logic for the magic and superstition of religion.

I was not bif proponent of Prop 8, but the umber of factual inaccuraices in this story is breathtaking.

I was no big proponent of Prop 8, but the number of factual inaccuraices in this story is breathtaking. And for better or worse, I do not think that protests will prevent any Mormon weddings from occuring. Sheesh.

Gays,

You are so completely deluded that you don't even realize that your point is moot. MARRIAGE IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHT!!!

"Civil and political rights are a class of rights ensuring things such as the protection of peoples' physical integrity; procedural fairness in law; protection from discrimination based on gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, etc; individual freedom of belief, speech, association, and the press; and political participation."

If you keep insisting that it is, you are just further pissing off the African American community. You know, the majority of the population that voted no against your marriages!!!!

Why can't you just accept the fact that most of people DISAGREE WITH YOU!

Oh wait, that's right, you apparently don't allow people to disagree with you unless they are on your side. So pathetic.

Molly,

Why do you give a definition of civil rights including protection from discrimination based on sexual orientation, and then get all bent out of shape? That definition is why we think it's a civil rights issue, how can it be otherwise to say marriage is just for straight people, and gays are relegated to second class?

On your point on African Americans, first they are a small minority of the prop 8 supporters, so you're wrong on that score. But I understand this touches a nerve with some african americans, but it shouldn't. By your definition, civil rights are accorded not just to African Americans, but a whole range of people, including gays. Those that find homosexuality disgusting will also be angry that we consider gay rights civil rights, but that's a side issue. Their real beef is with being gay, usually because of some biblical injunction.

And your last sentence is even more nonsensical than the rest of your rant. By definition those that disagree with us aren't on our side. Maybe your english got messed up on the point, but as is it's useless.

This strikes me as an excellent way to non-violently protest the church's shenanigans in supporting H8.

Another tactic I haven't seen considered: publicly rebuking the parents who allowed their children to be used in the H8 ads for child exploitation and abuse. Some of those kids are gay and they will be devastated by how their parents used them.

Gays,

You should get it by now. Separate but equal rings true for you! So stop your whining and deal with your Civil Unions. You're lucky you get that.

There's no such thing as hate. You are the reason why the economic downturn is happening now. You are the reason for the wars and the problems we face now.

As a society we should turn back our evil ways and make divorce illegal. We should make single parenting illegal, just like they did in Arkansas!

We should also outlaw interracial marriage, because the Bible says it is wrong. Birth control and condoms need to be made illegal as well. It clearly states so in the Bible.

This is a democracy! The majority of the USA is tired of the progressive left pushing their agenda about blacks, hispanics, gays, and everything else. Studies have shown that once you give one of these groups any rights, it is all downhill from there!

Let's make America what it use to be back in the early 1800s! That was when we were a true God fearing nation and when life was good.

If we don't mend our ways, America is going to hell in a handbasket. And if you don't agree with me, you are going to Hell too!

For the comments on singling out the mormon church. Come on people get your facts straight before writing this stuff. The Mormon Church personally donated 2,200 and the members were up to 27 Million.

Equality for all

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38058826330

What would Osama Bin Laden want?

He agrees with the Republicans and conservatives on keeping gay marriage illegal.

Religious morals should play no role in the decision of whether one can marry or not. If moral issues mattered, then we would outlaw adultery, drinking, eating too much, and several other activities of our everyday life. If Religious morals were the basis of our laws, then there would be a question of which Religion to base our morals upon. Similar to Osama Bin Laden, our society is trying to force "Christian" morals down everyone's throats.

If one is to truly examine the basis of our laws, it is based upon the concept to protect ourselves from death and others from having choice. Clearly, taking away a person's right to marry whom they choose is a violation of our basic principles. It affects someone else's life, where as two gay people marrying affect no one else's life.

California needs to appeal this amendment. Then there needs to be a change to the way constitutional amendments are passed. They need to be passed with a two-thirds vote. Otherwise, a slim majority could take away the rights of many people. It would be a totally different ballgame if the amendment was passed 67% to 33%.

On top of that, when you criticize the gays for protesting. You are doing the same thing that happened in the US when whites criticized blacks for their protests led by Martin Luther King Jr. Which is the same thing that Nazi Germany did to the Jews, blacks, and gays. Every generation has to deal with hate no matter what horrible or simple mask it bears. So maybe is the time for each of us to reexamine ourselves and support someone else's civil right, whether we agree with it on a Religious level or not. Remember, the Bible has good lessons on this. Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself." So take a look at yourself before you pick up the stones of hate and begin chucking them at a minority asking for equality.

Jay Hadron

The idea of denying basic or civil rights to anyone based on their being part of a group, demographic or otherwise, is not reasonable or just. I would certainly agree that the United States has persecuted its people and discriminated along lines of race and epistomology, but that is no reason to justify doing so today or ever.

Both Mormons and Blacks must be glad that the US treats them better today than it did 150 years ago.

I personally believe that marriage is ordained of God and thus a religious institution. It is not merely a social contract. The fact that government chooses to regulate it and asign benefits to married couples is nigh unto the kind of limitations the idea of seperation of church and state tries to prevent.

Perhaps it would be reasonable for states to make a constitutional amendment stating that the government shall not regulate based on marriage or other civil unions. I don't know. What do you think of removing government from love? I haven't thought that idea through entirely, but I do like the idea of taking Uncle Sam out of my life as much as is reasonable.

To the person who said their mormon brother was afraid to go to school because of this - how do you think gay children all across America feel? They have been afraid to go to school for decades because of the fear and hatred and intolerance your church and many others preach. I'm glad your brother is afraid to go to school. People rarely care about discrimination until they are the victims. Hopefully this will be a learning experience for both of you.

DISCLAIMER: This is going to be both complimentary to the Gay community in terms of understanding but it will also be full of hopefully constructive criticism over what I have been seeing with my own two eyes and what I have been hearing. The same goes for the religious community whose side I can also understand. So my advice is read this ALL before you pass a judgment. If you read one paragraph and then reply I will know and will call you on it because it will be obvious.

To be fair not all Mormons were in agreement with Prop8 Passing. I myself am not in agreement with it. I felt misled and in many cases almost pressured to do it by my local ward. I took a stand and just said I will make my voice heard at the polls (voted no). I was relieved to hear there were other members (Steve Young most notably) was against Prop8 as well. I agree that there is discrimination there and a clear taking of civil liberties. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle, but I certainly will not take the right away for you to live it. That is entirely your choice.

Sadly too many people were deceived by this campaign on both sides. And the fact that right now the Gay community is up in arms (rightfully so) is only making things worse. The best thing IMO would be to take this to court and get it fought and overturn it. Call it a day. Protesting has never really done much more than upset the other side that much more and justify their vote. It comes off as a sore loser mentality. There are other effective and strategic ways to handle this. Protesting is not one of them. It just comes off as whining IMO. I respect what you are going through, but the protesting just screams of whinyness. Just like when Christians protest about something in your eyes you disagree with you will often see it in that same light.

The retributive actions I have personally witnessed as a result of this vote on children by supporters of this I find make it much harder to get ANYONE on the Gay community's side. In Sunnyvale a parent was telling me how their child was singled out in class for being the ONLY supporter of Prop 8. Think about that...KIDS CANT VOTE!!! KEEP THEM THE HELL OUT OF THIS!!!!
Teachers with strong political views should not be trying to CHANGE kids. Teach them the facts and LET them decide and choose. On another occasion an elementary schooler also got singled out and threatened with physical harm by his peers. Again KEEP THE KIDS OUT OF THIS!!! That is SOO wrong and anyone on both sides should see that for what it is. Thug politics. Let the adults have their fight but keep kids out of this. I have said my piece in support of AND against the Gay community for their current plight and for their follow up actions. Now to my point for an against the Prop 8 supporters.

***Specifically for those FOR Prop 8**** If you were not for prop 8 this may or may not make sense to you. I am trying to "reason" from a religious point of view.

FYI for the religionists reading this it was not MAN who judged Soddom and Gommorah it was God. Let God pass judgement. if this is wrong let God judge, as man's judgment has always been flawed. We have seen this time and time again when religion gets in the middle of politics. It has often been the basis of wars as there can be clergy men with an agenda who will try to force their agenda with a religious spin to get faithful to buy into it. Wolf in sheep's clothing so to speak.

The Bible may indicate Homosexuality is wrong? so be it, you, like gay people (or any other people with a belief or lifestyle different than your own) are entitled to believe what you want and live by it. But to persecute another people for your beliefs and in the name of Jesus is just plain wrong. Jesus preached to all, and they CHOSE to follow him. They were not forced or coerced. He preached to sinners and to anyone who would listen. Ironically it was the Religious LEADERS of his time who crucified him.

So when you are persecuting a people, in many ways you are crucifying him afresh. If you feel this is a sin, then hate the sin not the sinner. Let God judge the matter. Because in this we as a people are not even sure (seeing as there has been division in our ranks over this). We have been misled by people with an agenda as has been readily proven.

To the Mormon's specifically. Free Agency has ALWAYS been apart of our religion. We need to let people choose what they are going to do. We can make our beliefs within our organization and enforce them for ourselves internally the way we always have. But we just got deeply involved in a political matter.

****To everyone****
The below I heard as hearsay so I cannot say how accurate it is. If anyone has proof for or against it I would like to learn more. But still it was alarming for me to hear. I am hoping it is flat out wrong.

If the agenda here is to allow marriages and the same rights by the state so be it I have no issues with that and I have supported that by voting no on Prop 8.

IF this is a push by the Gay community to try to force Churches to allow gay marriages then you are now being the persecutors and overstepping your bounds. Beliefs are what they are. If you want yours to be respected then respect others beliefs. That fact will not be lost on potential supporters or middle of the road voters on any future vote for this. That at least needs to be respected if anything for those who at least try to support your right to Marry and have differing lifestyles.

If you don't like it then form your own Church. It's worked for the countless different Christian sects out there. FYI I HEARD this last point so I don't know how accurate it is. I am hoping I am wrong on this particular point because if it were true it would certainly justify why people wanted this vote to pass and would certainly sway my opinion in favor of seeing as I was willing to respect the belief and lifestyle of another. But when that other does not do the same then I have to make sure at the end of the day my belief is protected as well. Call it selfish, but isnt that what the Gay community is doing for itself? As I said. I respect your views. I dont share them. But I will be damed if I see someone else take that right away from you. I am hoping this message will be equally informative to BOTH sides in understanding this. People fear what they do not understand. And so they keep it opressed and do whatever it takes to keep it down.

I know some gay people and am friends with them. They are good people trying to live a good life. They do not share my beliefs. I don't need them to in order to be friends with them. They are who they are and I am who I am and that is all there is to it. The way I look at it is this, if I am fighting for my life with a group of people at my side, am I going to care about their faith? Lifestyle? Race? NO!! They are fighting for survival. We all are in this together and it is important we understand each other on this.

The breakdowns in the middleeast have happened because WE do not understand the people who live there. It is an US vs THEM mentality. So each side needs to take the time to sit down and at least TRY to understand the other side. And be civil about it. Some things can be worked out when reasonable people are involved.

In this Prop8 thing there have been irrational people on BOTH SIDES!!! I see the Gay Commuinity in a rage over this and (based on personal experience) persecuting children in schools. Christians lying of all things on what this Prop would do or wont do or what rights it takes away. And Churches (including my own) getting involved in politics.

Like someone else said, We live in a weird world right now. Hopefully reason on both sides can triumph over the irrationality of the extremists on both sides of this issue.

As a straight white mail I am ashamed that this measure came to pass. Who are we to say that two people who love each other can't be married? Wasn't a central tenant of the Constitution seperation of church and state? If two individuals can find a church that is willing to join them in matrimony who are we to stand in their way? What right does the government have to stand in their way for that matter? I may not be gay, but I refuse to stand in the way of someone's happiness simply because they choose to love another man. Get over yourselves and your Puritanical views on sex. What someone does with their penis or vagina does not make them less deserving of a tax break or medical coverage.

Reap the gay whirlwind! When will people learn that when you fuck with another group of people there are always concequences.

-Nongay/NonMorman observer

Reap the gay whirlwind! When will people learn that when you fuck with another group of people there are always concequences.

-Nongay/NonMorman observer

Reap the gay whirlwind! When will people learn that when you fuck with another group of people there are always concequences.

-Nongay/NonMorman observer

why can't everyone just hate each other equally?

And protesters are merely exercising their democratic rights too.

Suck it up

Mormons are being singled out because this ballot proposition was DOA in March before LDS poured 80 MILLION TAX FREE DOLLARS glommed from its gullible followers, to intermeddle in California's legislative process in order to deprive millions of people of their civil liberties.

I'm Black and I'm Catholic. I'm sad that I could only vote YES once. I wish I could've voted YES as a Black and YES as a Catholic. I made up for that by calling all of my friends and family and persuading them to vote YES, even if they had reservations about civil rights. I told them to vote YES to protect their kids. Worked like a charm. I'll do the same thing in 2010. I'm ready. The gays are targeting Mormons for revenge, but the Mormons can't touch Black Catholics. See ya.

I am not even gay nor care about the marriage thing. All I know is the Mormon Church is a giant tax free cult and deserves anything and everything that gets dished their way. It wasn't too long ago black people couldn't even join their cult until "a vision" was had allowing them in.

Even though I agree that protesting is a legal avenue of expressing ones self, if these people keep on causing suffering to those who LEGALY supported Prop 8 all they'll reap is resentment. No one will change their minds about how they voted and when they go and try to have Prop 8 repealed they'll find all their oposition still there and then some.

I'm sick of hearing people spout rehtoric that isen't really true. First off "Seperaton of Church and State" DOES NOT appear in the constitution. It is pulled from a supreme court ruleing that banned public prayer in schools.

Secondly Freedom of Religion does not mean Freedom From Religion. It means no one can force you to believe one way, nor can you force them to believe or practice in a particular manner.

Last, let's consider what would have happend if Prop. 8 had not passed and a couple came to any conservitive preacher, Including a mormon one.

"We want to use your chapel for our same-sex marriage."

"Sorry. Our church teaches that homosexuality is a sin so we can't allow you to have a marrige here."

The couple sues, Church loses it's tax exempt status, all church property, incuding mormon temples if this was a mormon preacher, become public property, the right to religous freedom is destroyed.

Same-sex couples still can get a tax break and their medical benifits. Legally they are still almost the same as heterosexual couples. They just don't get to wear the title of 'married'.

Legal Outfall,

I don't know if you're just ignorant, or lying like the rest of the prop 8 crowd. That scenario is exactly what the mormons et al used to scare up a small majority. But none of it is true, it will never happen. And there's no point in discussing the hypothetical, there are lots of places with gay marriage. In none of these places are churches compelled to perform gay marriages, there are never negative repurcussions for refusing. Never have been, never will be, but you just keep lying to one another and voting ignorantly. What a way to make policy.

Gays will never be equal!

You choose to be Gay. Just like I can choose who I like, who I want to love, you choose who you want. Since it is a choice you are not entitled to everything you feel you deserve.

If i choose to commit a crime, I may lose my freedom, or my right to vote. If I was a criminal I can't say that I deserve to be equal since I choose to do something that loses what I feel i deserve.

God did not create you Gay. Just like he doesn't create someone to be a pedophial.

I allow you do do what you want, act like you want, love who you want, and even do what you want to do in the privacy of your own home.

As a christian I love you as a person, just like Jesus still loves you, but he never condoned the sin.

I do not hate you. But lately I am hating what you are doing, protesting, and targeting the mormons, being a sore loser and bitching & complaining.

If you want to stop the hate, you need to stop doing what you are doing. Go back to living your life how you were. Leave the mormons and others alone.

If you don't, you are going to continue to be seen as a different and unequal group that is a sore loser, that bitch and complain everytime it doesnt go their way.

Unfortuniately that group is easy to hate by many, and may cause some to retaliate or do something that is not appropriate against gays.

"Sore Losers" is definitely the term that comes to mind. Live a gay life if they want. But don't pretend it's a marriage. A femme guy can't give birth either, nor breast feed, even if he wants to. What ya gonna do? Complain to God that he wasn't politically correct? There is definitely bigotry here, by the side that's ironically participating in childish riots, calling "bigots" to anyone that didn't vote their way. It would be like McCain voters rioting against Obama voters saying "it's not fair, you just hate us! We want a revote!" You could destroy my house in anger, I am not changing my view on it.

Gays,

I'm sick of the idiotic, unresearched comments being made here.

First, THE LDS CHURCH DID NOT GIVE ANY MONEY TO THE YES ON 8 CAMPAIGN. If you think they didn't consult lawyers before taking any action you have got to be really, really dumb. THE MORMON CHURCH TAX STATUS IS IN NO WAY AT RISK. So get over it.

Second, ACCEPT THE FACT THAT CALIFORNIANS DO NOT WANT GAY MARRAIGE. This is the second time the vote has been passed. WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SUCH POOR LOSERS? You have civil unions which give you all the same legal right. LEAVE MARRIAGE ALONE!

Last, WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH YOU? You assume that because they disagree, there is something wrong with them. The reason why the MAJORITY voted to ban gay marriage is irrelevant. If people disagree, that is all that matters. Who cares if it is based on religion, science, or anything else.

You are making yourselves look really, really bad. The fact that the religious community at large is against gay marriage is no big surprise. You aren't opening anyone's eyes and here's a newsflash: RELIGIONS ARE ALLOWED TO TEACH WHATEVER THEY WANT. So maybe you should change your tactics and look for better ways to further your agenda. By protesting and demeaning churches you are simply further pissing off the public that voted against you.

I'm sick of the gays trying to force ME to accept THEIR relationship as marriage.

They have civil unions, and they have equal protection under the law (which was all they said they wanted a few years back), and I agree with that -- they should be treated fairly under the law.

But that fact that they're still pushing appears to be proof that there is a 'gay agenda'.

gay says: "secured legal acknowledgment and protection of our equality."

Pffft, what a lie. The civil unions act in CA gives you protection and equality.

That's not what you're after -- you're after legislation that will attempt to force everyone else to say you are normal.

Your concience must need a little salving.

The amount of hate and intolerance shown on this website is sickening. I am a supporter of Prop 8, and I would NEVER show any homosexuals the amount of disrespect and hate that they have shown mormons and other christian religions.

I don't know where some of you posters get your information, there are so many inaccuracies! First of all, Mormons are NOT polygamists! And the church did not instruct us to donate 50% of our tithes. That is a blatent lie! We mormons in Cali made up a small percentage of those who voted yes on Prop 8, and yet we are being viciously targeted. It is our democratic right to stand up for what we believe, and I feel that we have done that respectfully. Too bad you guys can't show us the same respect and leave our sacred Temples alone!

The last couple of posters have extremely thin skins. As far as I can tell, posters are about 3 to 1 anti-gay rather than anti-Mormon, and the language used by the anti-gay side is just as offensive, sickening etc. There are a total of two comments that reference polygamy, and one mentions 50% tithing, out of almost 80 postings, so Erin your fake hysteria over that is a bit hard to take. Mormons are not polygamists, but were, and I think it's fair game to bring up the fact that you can change the definition of marriage when it suits you, but not when it suits others. And the 50% may be wrong, but it's consistent with the truth that mormons funded the majority of the hate campaign, and that's why the anger is pointed at mormons. Contrast that with the idiot comments about femme gays not being able to breast feed, or the lie about churches being shut and religious freedom destroyed if prop 8 fails. Unlike the sophomoric polygamist namecalling, the religious freedom lie actually affected the vote and caused us to lose our families. A few silly comments on a blog vs. vicious lies flooding the airwaves meant to delude voters into supporting a bigoted amendment that destroys gay families and hurts nobody? Seems to me you'd have to be pretty dense to view the two as equivalent.

Erin, the same respect?

You removed the right for gays to marry. They are removing the right for you to marry.

THEY ARE Showing you the exact same respect that you showed them

Nice source. who cares who is ancestors were. He has an agenda and therefore is not a good source. My great great uncle was on trial at the Nuremberg, but that doesn't mean I am an expert on the Holocaust and what happened in concentration camps. This piece is so misleading and the comments against Mormons are so petty and without merit it is embarrassing. No rights were taken away here. The people, "AGAIN", made their voice known. This is not the first time Californians voted for this. They did it back in 2000 as well. Prop 8 wouldn't have happened if Judges hadn't decided to make law instead of interpret it.
It's so funny that people are shocked about this. The Poles were pretty clear that this was going to pass. Protest the Mormons all you want. This commotion will pass. People only march if they can change something. The Mormon church has no control over this law or its future. Protesters will go away.
It's funny when someone votes for something they believe in that they are branded haters. I voted for the same law in Arizona, not because I hate gays. I love gays! I have friends who are gays and most disagree with me on this law. We still have lunch and hang out and we can still see that we have far more in common than we don't.
Mormons... go to sleep tonight. In a few days the protesters will grow tired or they will use up all of their sick time and will have to go back to work.

I am Mormon. I voted for it. I love my gay brothers and Sisters, but felt strong about this topic.

I did not vote out of hate I voted out of faith in what I belive in.

The hypocritical thing about this whole mess is that people who voted against Prop 8 voted against it because they believed it was wrong based on whatever they believe.

You add religion to that and all of the sudden it is based on hate. Hypocrites!!!!!!

Don't tell me why I voted for it. Did you vote against it because you hate the traditional form of Marriage or because you hate Mormons or Christianity or wholesome Values and Morals. No, probably not. You voted against it because you believe that two men or two women should be able to be married.

It's a disagreement, but like every other spoiled child when you don't get your way you lash out and throw a big fit.

No on prop 8 put out more money and definitely more negative propaganda than Yes on 8. You lost, that's it. Gays had about 6 1/2 months of rights to marry and every single one of them new this was going to happen in the end. They were trying to make a point and they still are.

The only reason to support prop 8 is either hate or ignorance Martins. If you dont hate gays, then you were ignorant of the impact. With gay marriage, gays can marry the person they love and establish a family. That is certainly not done out of hate for mormons or any other group, but love for our partner. And gay marriage has nothing whatsoever to do with your marriage, your religious beliefs, or any other aspect of your life. That's why you either hate, to get so worked up as to want to break up our happy families, or are ignorant on this score, voting because you erroneously thought your marriage or church was at risk if gays were allowed to be happy. So your analogy doesn't work, we voted no on 8 based on love, and people voted for 8 based on hate or ignorance, it's the only explanation, but one that your side refuses to accept because it's not flattering. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Shari,

You are right and you are wrong.

Your quotation of the law is correct, bu the "Mormon Church" never instructed its members to give 50% of its tithes to Proposition 8. Please refrain from hearsay and state facts.

The "Mormon Church" encouraged its members to get involved as their consciences saw fit. Any statement by the church on what it deems a moral issue is just that... a statement.

So what about some of the other non-profit organizations that donated millions towards the no campaign? The California Teachers Association PAC, the SEIU, and others? They were directly involved in the campaign against Prop 8.

Most reasons given for voting YES are based on tax exemptions and school indoctrination. The REAL reason, which we don't talk about because it makes us look like theocrats, is that the Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination. There. I said it. To the gays: seperation of church and state only applies to Congress. It doesn't apply to me, a Black Catholic. I vote based on conscience, my conscience is based on my belief in God and the Bible, and no argument about civil rights will ever change that (kinda ironic being Black). I don't care if my vote infringes on your perceived rights. Let me repeat that: my value system is based on the Bible, not secular morality. It is true that Christ says to love your neighbor and he wants people to love one another and be together. Well, I love you. But don't ever think that I will sanction gay marriage. And that goes for everyone who attends church and reads the Bible. It is an ABOMINATION. If it makes you feel any better: I voted NO to give chickens bigger cages.

I heard audio from the mormon upper echelons on the Stephanie Miller show. They are scared of not having a whipping boy to rally against if gays can marry. Sure they probably think they are doing the world a service... but a big part of the presentation was try to prevent themselves from being called intolerant and preserve the capacity to vilify gays.

That they funded so much of this from Utah with their corporate church coffers and networks... when religion is not supposed to be involved directly with elections... its just galling!

To top it off.. half of what they said was lies. Since when does allowing gays to marry ever revoke mormon's freedom of religion? Or their right to free speech? Oh that's right.. they fear.. just like the church big whigs said.. that they won't be able to freely spew vitriol about gays if they are allowed to marry.

What a defense.. can't allows gay equality in marriage because if we are intolerant of it... people will call us intolerant!

Should mormon weddings be stopped? ALL GAY WEDDINGS have been... if the mormons are using their churches as political pulpits they deserve to be picketed regardless if that prevents weddings or not.

Lionel.. i'm glad you have found bible verse to support intolerance of gays. Makes you look all the more hypocrite.. as many of the people who said slave marriage was not legal nor between races was not legal.. used the bible to justify their own position.

I guess the bible being used to deny the rights of others was WRONG when it applies to you.. but is justified now?

Praise Jesus... a black man has found someone "lower" in society than himself!

Previously I was called a lier for saying a church could be shut down if Prop 8 passed. Even though it didn't happen to the mormons, and it hasn't happend in Califorina it did happen to a Methodist church in New Jersey.

The article "Church Loses Tax Exemption for Denying Civil Unions" shows that the minister wasn't even asked to perform the marrige, just to let them have their reception in an area where they had let others, even those not of their faith, have receptions. Below is a link to the article.

http://www.pridedepot.com/modules/wordpress/?p=1342

So don't call me a lier for stated what could, and what in other place has happend.

On another note, in my opinion no rights were granted by the court ruling and May and none were taken away by prop 8.

Gays have always had a right to marry, they just perfer not to marry those they're eligable to.

Correction: I was called a lier for saying church could be shurt down if prop 8 DID NOT pass.

Legal Outfall,

Your legal acumen is as good as your spelling. First, New Jersey has civil unions, not marriage, so it's not relevant to a gay marriage ban. If you fear the New Jersey ruling, you should be banning all gay relationship recognition. But more importantly if you look at the case it doesn't involve a church, it involves a beach pavilion. The pavilion and the beach are owned by an organization affiliated with the Methodist church. But it's not a church itself, and has to pay real estate taxes. However, New Jersey has a tax incentive scheme to encourage enterprises on the beach to open their property to everyone, in return for which they get a rebate on their real estate taxes. After they denied the use of the pavilion to a lesbian couple, the real estate tax exemption for the pavilion wasn't renewed. (The pavilion, by the way, had just received a large amount of taxpayer money to fix it after hurricane damage.) No minister or church was involved, the organization retained 99 percent of its real estate tax break, but lost it on this one building, because the one stipulation to receiving the tax break was that it be open to everyone. Once it was closed to some, it lost the exemption. This would have happened with or without gay marriage, with or without the property being owned by a religious organization, and with or without gays involved in any way. I know this is a popular example on your side, as is the Swedish minister who spouted hate speech, who will probably be your next example. But he broke Sweden's hate crimes law, again totally unrelated to gay marriage. Your side has gotten tremendous mileage out of these two cases, but a) both of them are completely unrelated to the issue at hand, and b) it strikes me that your side should feel very secure knowing that in all the countries and states allowing civil unions and marriages around the world, only two, extremely peripheral, question marks have been raised. And they're both red herrings, false alarms, diversionary tactics etc etc.

So the GLBT community has taken it upon themselves to pass judgement and punish the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members. What exactly do you want us to learn from your insults, incriminations, and miltant actions against us? That we should fear you and acquiesce to your demands for acceptance? Is this really the side of you that you want us to accept? Or, is it the caring you show to each other as couples and to your children as families? Something to think about the next time you march in front of one of our temples and yell out your battle cries.

http://yes-on-prop8.blogspot.com/

I cannot believe the amount of inaccurate information that is being touted by the "no on 8" supporters. First off, the Mormon Church did NOT require its members to pay 50% of their tithing to the prop 8 campaign. In fact, the church did not donate any money whatsoever. It did encourage members to donate their time and resources including money if they felt like doing so in support of what the church considers to be an essential moral and societal issue. Religions have always been at the forefront of encouraging, supporting and defending moral and societal issues, and it would have been irresponsible, hypocritical, and yes, immoral for such an institution to have ignored the issue. The Mormons were in fact, only one part of a large coalition of many churches, faiths, and other organizations, including the teachers union, who supported the proposition, and while they played a large role in the grass roots coalition, they did not play the largest part. The amount of hatred, venom, ignorance, deliberate misinformation and prejudice being displayed by the "no on 8" community towards the Mormon church does nothing to support their contentions and everything to make them look like sore losers and the worst kind of extremists. The truth of the matter is, that while they complain about their civil rights being restricted, they are attempting to take away the rights of the rest of society to support their own beliefs, and act accordingly in the ballot box. Members of the Mormon Church in California and millions of others from every faith, ethnicity and political affiliation who voted for Proposition 8 exercised the most basic of our cherished American rights, that of free expression and voting. By the way, how many of you knew that Mormons supported rights for same sex partners hmmmm? The difference here is that legislation ensuring basic human rights such as hospitalization, medical care, fair housing, employment, and probate rights support the individual needs of all American citizens, but do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family, or the constitutional rights of churches. They do not impose legal requirements on educators, adoption services, government agencies and other institutions to condone or support a lifestyle that goes against personal or communal beliefs or redefines the basic structure of society. As for rights, the truth is, that for every single law that we enact, EVERY single law, we abridge the rights of some people. That is simple fact. However, we agree and decide as a people to the abridgment of those individual liberties for the greater good of society. This issue is an example. While there are undoubtedly some people who voted simply because of hate or bigotry, I believe that most of those who supported prop 8 voted not because they think that homosexuals are any the less loving or caring or important, but because they felt that the nature of our society is best served by the traditional structure of marriage, or because of concerns that possible extended legal ramifications stemming from legal same sex marriages were too dangerous for the greater good. We Americans are of course particularly keen on rights and liberties, and I would encourage everyone on BOTH sides of EVERY issue, including this one, to exercise their rights and put out their message to the best of their ability. I would in fact defend that right even for those I disagree with. But we have created a system that is meant to reflect the will of the majority, NOT that of any minority, and for now, that majority has spoken whether you like it or not. If positions were reversed, "no on 8" supporters would expect the oposition to respect the "will of the people," and behave accordingly. It's a shame they cannot practice this principle themselves. The intimidation tactics, the misinformation and perpetuation of outright lies to defame and offend those who disagree with them, makes their position particularly hypocritical and without serious validity. By all means, attempt to change public opinion, but do it respectfully.

Diana,

I hesitated replying to your long post, because you're just rehashing the same stale arguments that we keep trying to address, but it never gets anywhere. Let's face it, nobody is going to change their minds from reading these posts, so it's a gigantic waste of time. Having said that, it feels good offloading here, so here goes.

First, you mention this mountain of misinformation here, then point to exactly one example, the 50% tithing comment that one of 90 posters made. I believe you that that is wrong, but you are clearly trying to be misleading in your characterization of the mormon involvement in this travesty. You were in fact compelled to make these donations, and many people donated specifically because they feared the repurcussions from the church. Mormons are going to great pains to pretend that they exercised free choice in this vote, but there is ample evidence that they had no choice but to follow their apostles and prophet which is what all of you did. By the way I don't think that's wrong, everyone is entitled to one vote, I think it's sad that you voted the wrong way based on a set of lies pumped through the mormon network, but people vote stupidly all the time, and our system is one person, one vote, so we have to live with the results. But I am sick and tired of the mormons, who strongarmed their way from Utah into the California constitution, now pretending that they were merely observers, and also tired of the hysteria that you're now generating because some gays dare to protest the results. Nobody is protesting your right to vote, nobody is doing anything illegal. You and your kind regularly protest violently outside abortion clinics, invading private property and breaking all sorts of laws. Apparently that's ok. but a few thousand gays are upset that their families have been attacked by a bunch of outsiders, and you're all up in arms. What do you even mean, we should respect the will of the majority and act accordingly. Should we all just go ahead and marry opposite sex partners because the mormons flushed a bunch of lies through our tv networks? No, of course not, and legal protesting is just as protected as your cherished freedom of religion, so live with it.

Mormons support no rights for gays, and that's just part of their pr campaign (I'm answering your hmmm question above now). Your church has put that on a press release, but it's as false as the other lies your church has spread in order to trick Californians to support their bigotry. Fortunately, a Utah gay group is gathering signatures to put civil unions on the ballot in Utah. It will be interesting to see the mormon church swing their support behind that initiative.

Let's see, what other lies should I address here. Well, there's your point that gays are trying to take away your right to vote, which is of course ridiculous. You voted, you sullied the constitution with your bigotry, and that's that. Sorry if it hurts your feelings that we're not thanking you for destroying our families, but our peaceful protest is completely legitimate. It's ridiculous that you even try to equate the two.

I find your emphasis on lies from the no on 8 crowd to be particularly galling. I wish we had lied during the campaign, but unfortunately our campaign leaders were novices. Your church poured lies about churches being shut down, ministers arrested, children indoctrinated, etc all across California, and scared enough people to vote your way. If you would have conducted an honest campaign, and just said you're supporting prop 8 because the bible condemns gays and therefore they don't deserve marriage, you would have lost, but if you won, we would have accepted it much better. But you won based on a bunch of lies, so the results mean nothing, hence the anger.

Lastly, your legal point about every single law we pass abridging the rights of someone is perhaps your stupidest point. Your side will disagree, because you've been brainwashed with these silly religious freedom commercials, but the fact is, this is the perfect example of a law that violates your theory. Gay marriage makes a marginalized part of society extremely happy. And the good news is, it has absolutely no effect on anybody else. Just look at Europe, Canada, New England, and show me where any non-gay has been affected in the slightest by gay marriage. The truth, which the mormons are desperately trying to hide, is nothing changes for the vast majority of the people, and the minority of the people (the gays) are happier. It's a no brainer, and hopefully in the very near future California will shake its oppression by the mormons and join modern society.

I really hope that no one actually believes that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints still practice polygamy. The practice has been outlawed since 1890. That's 128 years of not practicing plural marriage. Any member of the church who does practice polygamy is promptly excommunicated from the church.
This argument that protesting temples stops mormons from marrying their multiple wives is simply ridiculous.
It also shows that the side that claims to be more open minded, liberal, and pro equality are in fact on the same level as those they rally against. They stoop the same levels of finger pointing, name calling, and severe hasty generalizations.
One last thing, and yes you can call it a dig if you want, but has anyone stopped to think why the mormons no longer practice polygamy? Because it was made illegal by the Federal courts! Once the practice was illegal, the church stopped.

Why target one Church when so many others believe the same thing but they just aren't as vocal about it ? That is just cowardly. If anyone is going to single out one religious group for supporting proposition 8 then gay rights activists should target them all. Its just absurd. There are other more mature ways to have your voice heard than protesting in front of Temples and being hateful after all gay activists are saying Mormons are the ones who hate, well whose hating now?

Why target one Church when so many others believe the same thing but they just aren't as vocal about it ? That is just cowardly. If anyone is going to single out one religious group for supporting proposition 8 then gay rights activists should target them all. Its just absurd. There are other more mature ways to have your voice heard than protesting in front of Temples and being hateful after all gay activists are saying Mormons are the ones who hate, well whose hating now?

To everyone who reads this article and decides to respond: PLEASE make sure you have your facts correct. No matter which side you are on, you make yourself and your argument sound foolish and childish without facts.

One or two people have corrected the false statement about 50% tithes being paid out to Prop 8. The people who corrected that false information were criticized for doing so. Same goes for the people who corrected the wrongful information about Mormons practicing polygamy. They were criticized for making that correction. Why were they criticized? Because they were taking away the arguments of the No on 8 supporters? No matter who you are, or which side you're on, doesn't everyone deserve to be represented fairly and correctly, and not falsely? I think the reason those items were corrected is because they were painfully false and the people who gave that information obviously hadn't done their research. JMO

ok so one thing that i don't get is why these gay people are using the line "they are taking away our civil rights" and all this bull. WELL GUESS WHAT mormons have civil rights too!!!!!
WE LIVE IN AMERICA!!! its a free country!!! MORMONS CAN DO AND SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT!!! if you don't like it move to canada!!! AND ANOTHER THING!!!! God made two genders for a reason!!! if he wanted people to be gay he would have made just guys or just girls!!! Mormons are protecting the sanctity of marriage betweeen a MAN and a WOMAN!!! NOT A GUY AND A GUY OR A CHICK AND A CHICK!!!!! I highly respect the mormons for sticking up for those people in the world that can't!!!!!!! someone would have done it sooner or later so gay people get over it. PROPS TO THE MORMONS!!!!!!!!!! o ya and they don't worship joseph smith it called the church of JESUS CHRIST of latter- day saints. and they aren't poligamists either. and it wasn't just the mormon churh that supported this!!!!!!!! so stop persecuting the mormons because their right!!

Mormons are not human beings. They are pieces of garbage that should be ignored like a discarded hamburger wrapper on a busy street.

Marriage is a Holy Union between a Man and a Woman created by God. Why do the gays want such a union since their faith in God is so shallow. Just go buy your stuff together if thats what you want. Why do you feel that you need a Holy Union? The Mormons are right! You are wrong. You cannot reproduce! Do you ever see any gay animals? Why arn't animals born gay? Get over it. Accept that you are wrong and move on.

While marriage is licensed and otherwise regulated by the states, government did not create the institution of marriage. In fact, the institution of marriage most likely pre-dates the institution of government! Government regulation of marriage is based on state recognition of the practices and customs formulated by private individuals interacting in civil society. Many people associate their wedding day with completing the rituals and other requirements of their faith, thus being joined in the eyes of their church – not the day they received their marriage license from the state. Having federal officials, whether judges, bureaucrats, or congressmen, impose a new definition of marriage on the people is an act of social engineering profoundly hostile to liberty.

Your beef should be with the "state" not the Mormons or any other group of individuals.

The question is this: since the states involvement in issuing "licenses"/ permission is relatively recent, what are they giving you permission to do that you have not had the historical right to do without this permission.

When you go down this road of asking the state to acknowledge your position you are by default giving them control over an aspect of your life they have no business in.

This then creates other problems. You want equal tax status, heir status, medical status etc. Can you not see all the obstacles you face are government CREATED in the first place?

"Mormons are not human beings. They are pieces of garbage that should be ignored like a discarded hamburger wrapper on a busy street."

WOW. So much for love, tolerance and acceptance. You want respect? Give it to them first. They would never call you names, never insult you in such a way, and if Prop. 8 hadn't passed, they wouldn't have reacted this way.

Look, they voted like everyone. Christians, Catholics, Jews and Muslims all voted, People who aren't even specifically religious & those who supported Gay Marriage voted as well.

Do you even know Mormons? They are people like you and me. Their faith teaches them to love one another, no man is greater than no man because we are ALL SINNERS SAVED BY GRACE. They believe you shouldn't judge someone else, that's God's job, so live and let live. Though they do not agree with you, they do not harass you. And they deserve that same courtesy. They gave money not from the church as an institution, but from the members, therefore, it don't violate no laws.

As for marriage, lets put it this way sweetie, I would not go into a Jewish church & ask for a Bat mistvah cuz its their thing. And I sure as hell wouldn't get pissed & throw no kind of tantrum because of it!

But they aren't the ones who tipped the scale, my people did. Thats right, the "niggers" did. You want to start stuff at my church? Come down to Compton and come see about me, baby.

P.S. Mike & Robin, I agree with you.

"Rather than act childishly about the results of the vote, the GLBT should reflect on what they did wrong,"

What we did wrong is not speak up in outrage against Mormon political activities long ago. Mormons are trying to turn the US into an Iran-style theocracy, and anybody with a conscience needs to speak out.

Protests at Mormon temples should have happened long before Prop 8. The protests are not against their beliefs, but against their reprehensible political and social activities.

Better start protesting outside Jahovah Witness Kingdom Halls then too. They openly preach that their church, or to be fair, that Christ will rule over all the earth with his chosen 144,000 leaders. However Christ won't create this kingdom for himself. It's the JW's job to create this kingdom before he comes so he can receive it the moment he arrives.

Talk about wanting to create theocracy.

Wow. The sheer hypocrisy and ignorance of these posts makes an intelligent person want to gouge out their eyes. Stop the hate, huh? So you say, but then you turn around and spew hatred towards the Mormons and other religions? On top of that, your facts are horribly off. Here are the facts about the Mormon Church:
1. Mormons no longer practice polygamy and they peacefully submitted to the government when they were forcibly made to stop. They were imprisoned, had their property taken by the government, etc. The United States even sent their army to deal with the Mormons. The FACT is that Mormons accepted that people did not accept polygamous marriage and decided to stop. Using polygamy as an argument is not going to convince any intelligent mind. The only thing you could be asking for by alluding to this is that the government should come down in might and force gays to accept that gay marriage is not accepted by the United States.
2. It is true that sexually active homosexuals are subject to Church disciplinary measures. What some ignorant posters always fail to mention is that sexually active HETEROsexuals (outside of marriage) are also subject to the same discipline. The rule is: Get married or don't have sex, gay or not. Period.
3. The Mormon Church is a Christian Church. For those who are incapable of doing any research out there the proper name of the Church is The Church of (say it with me) JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. The Church preaches that (say it with me again) JESUS CHRIST is the Savior and that salvation comes through Him. Their Book claims to be another Testament of (say it with me one more time) JESUS CHRIST with the prophets testifying of Him. They also accept the Bible as the word of God. So, I fail to see how they don't classify as Christian.
Look, I am for gay rights, but I am against hate and ignorance. And personally, I see much more hatred and ignorance coming from the GLBT community than I ever saw from the Mormons. Make no mistake, there are bigoted people out there, Mormon or not. But gays can also be bigots, as evidenced by the vehement comments against religion and heterosexuals.
Furthermore, the gay marriage issue is a slippery slope. Some countries (and there are very few that allow actual marriage) that have legalized gay marriage have also gone as far to okay consensual incestuous marriage and marriage to animals. Next on the agenda? Polygamy and pedophilia.
I also hate to say it, but those arguing that homosexuality is not a choice are also saying, in a sense, that any sexual preference is not a choice. So, pedophiles, necrophiliacs, furries, etc. would also have to be okay, right? They didn't choose to be attracted to these things, it's just who they are. I am fine with anything two consenting human adults decide to do, but it is a choice. To believe otherwise opens up horrors beyond imagination.

Sorry Branden but your ignorance and hypocricy is just as eye-gouge worthy. First, stop beating a dead horse, everyone knows the status of polygamy in the mormon church. It's just angry people venting, but the large majority of posters make no mention of it, and it's been corrected several times in this chain, so move on. I can certainly assemble a much more laughable list of stupid statements by mormons about gays from these comments. Next, your stupid statement about the mormons' supposed equal treatment of sex outside marriage. Talk about hypocricy. Straight people have the option of getting married to have sex, what you're offering gays is no sex ever. And the obvious solution of course is to allow gays to marry so we're not condemned to everlasting celibacy, but of course your church went in the opposite direction. And your comment about mormons being equally against sex outside marriage is untrue as well. Why isn't the church pouring its money and forcing its members to petition against premarital or extramarital sex, if that's really the issue? No, instead the focus is on petitioning against marriage rather than sex outside marriage! So let's drop the pretense and call it what it is, homophobia, to put it politely. Your third point doesn't interest me, I don't care what you believe in, although your fellow fundamentalist bigots certainly do. That's why mormons rank just below gays on their hit list. For me, believe whatever you want to believe, just don't legislate your beliefs and interfere in everybody else's life.

Next you complain about the relative bigotry of gays vs mormons. This is completely unsubstantiated, although you're not alone in this position. I dont know if this is just more play acting or if you're honestly shocked that we are angry that you came into our homes and broke up our families, and relegated us to second class citizens. In that scenario, there's not much reason for you to vent anger against us, as we've never wronged you. But I'm sure if the situation were reversed and we managed to pollute the constitution with a ban on mormon marriage your side wouldn't be nearly as peaceful as you pretend. Then you go veering into crazy territory. Mormons did have a polygamous history, they don't know, but at least there's a kernel of truth to the accusation that you're so up in arms about. But you're just making stuff up wholesale with the outright lie that Europe, South Africa, Canada, the places where gay marriage are legal, also allow bestiality and incest. Absolute rubbish and you should be ashamed of yourself. And lastly, and very repetitively, homosexuality is not a choice, and all gays, the entire scientific community, and most normal thinking people who spend just a minute thinking about their own sexuality would know that they didn't choose be straight either. I'm not a pedophile, furry, necrophiliac so I have no idea if that's a choice or not, but who cares, they have nothing in common with gays. Gay marriage is the same as straight marriage, 2 consenting adults agreeing to live and love together forever. Your other examples involve animals, children, dead people, who obviously can't consent, so society has every right to legislate against them to protect the other parties. So on balance you corrected one error on our side (mormon polygamy) and made a half dozen on your own, not bad for a day's work.

You know what? FUCK YOU TOO JANET!!! You are the piece of garbage! What happened to love? IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT PISS ME THE FUCK OFF!!! Why don't you go cut yourself in the corner because the MORMONS ARE RIGHT!! GET OVER IT!!!

The Mormon "church" hides behind front groups it funds such as NOM. It is well known that the Mormons spent at least $20million on campaigns aimed at removing the rights of a certain group. The "church" has always attacked non-white, non straight and non conforming people.

Bring'em Young once preached that interracial couples should be put to death. To date this has not been revoked by subsequent "revelation". The history of Mormonism is rife with hate and bigotry. Gays are just the last group the Mormons can still attack legally.

I believe we should propose that cults lose their tax-free status. Buy buy Salt Lake Mega mall.

I am sad to see the anger and hurtful remarks I've read here on all sides of the debate.
In my heart I believe that regardless of your, age, gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation, Heavenly Father loves you. And if you choose not to believe in Him, well, that's at your discretion. I hope you at the very least know and believe that as a human, you have a great potential in this life to influence others for good or naught.
I have tried so hard to be informed of things going on. I have to say it's difficult because as humans, we all have an opinion with so many expressions of beliefs it's hard to sift out the facts. (For me anyway. I know that may make me sound ignorant, and I am sorry, I'm working on it.)

I admire those who have defended their beliefs honestly and firmly. Everybody has the right to what they believe. But name calling, mud slinging and other hurtful things get us no where. On all sides there is a lack of understanding and compassion. I know that what I write more than likely wont effect anyone in any great way but I'm grateful to make my opinion known.

I am married. I received a document not only of the faith I believe in but also the state, making it so. I have an aunt who is gay. She has been with the same woman for 12 years. She refers to her as her "wife." They had a ceremony, they wear rings but they do not have that paper, and honestly she doesn't seem to care. They live in a lovely home with two dogs and are so happy and in love. My husband has an uncle who has been with the same woman about the same amount of time. He also refers to her as his "wife." They wear rings, the have a family, but they have never gone to the courthouse to make it official in the governments eyes. They are happy with their arrangement. (in the state I live in common law marriages do not exists.)
I guess my point is, and this is where my ignorance shows, how has this law broken up families? (some in past posts have made reference to that.) In my mind there is no "right" way to have a family. If that were the case there would be no divorce, no step-family members, no half siblings, no foster members of families. There is no right way.
another question I have and this is honestly a question not a method of being antagonistic, but what specific benefits would a gay couple experience married by federal law that they do not now?
Is it healthcare, insurance status as a married couple...so on? I really don't know. My aunt and I have never really spoken on the subject so I honestly don't understand. I see how happy she is in her relationship and I see how she doesn't seem to "need" that piece of paper, so I don't know why it's so necessary. If I knew then I could make up my mind on the whole thing a whole lot easier. Yes I believe in my faith and I trust in God but I also believe he gave us minds and free agency for a reason.

I was legally and lawfully married because that's what I wanted for me. Spiritually, emotionally, and physically.
I wish I could get answers without the antagonism or hate. I admit I live in an area where it's very one sided on the subject. I honestly and truly want to understand. And I believe there are so many other people who want to understand too but when you see how people behave like they just want to fight, it feels like there isn't much of a point to try and listen.
I do understand that the world we live doesn't seem to allow that all the time. I'm no so naive. But I'm optimistic that if we try to give a little bit of understanding a lot more could be accomplished for everyone.

Facing hurt with more hurt never resolved anything. There I've said my peace and I hope I didn't offend. Thank you.