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Queer Town

The Long March to the Mormon Temple

By Patrick Range McDonald, Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 2:28AM
Comments (110)
Categories:

It was a little before ten o'clock on Wednesday evening, the day after Proposition 8 appeared to be approved by the voters of California, when Levi Jackman Foster arrived at the Los Angeles Mormon Temple in Westwood. He was 22-years-old, gay, and angry. Foster, a handsome blond with short hair and a two-day beard, was also an ex-Mormon.

"I completely abandoned the church because they abandoned me," Foster explained, as he stood on the sidewalk on Santa Monica Boulevard.

Foster, who wore a gray sweater, dark jeans, and leather boots, had just walked four miles from West Hollywood. Two hours earlier, several thousand gays, lesbians, and their straight friends gathered at San Vicente and Santa Monica boulevards for a rally opposing the passage of Proposition 8, the ballot measure that eliminates the right of gays and lesbians to legally marry in California. His friend, Sean Hemeon, another ex-Mormon and a former boyfriend of Foster's, had made the march with him.

"When I heard people talking about walking to the temple," said Hemeon, "I knew I had to go."


Post%20Vote%20Rally%20046.jpg
Levi Jackman Foster looked through the gates at the Los Angeles Mormon Temple on Santa Monica Boulevard in Westwood.

Hemeon was also handsome, 27-years-old, and wore leather shoes, blue jeans, and a dark jacket. Both of the young men were better dressed for a night of club hopping than demonstrating on the streets of Los Angeles, but they were very serious about the long walk they had just completed with a hundred or so strangers, who carried "No on 8" signs and chanted "Equal rights!"

"Proposition 8 is tearing my family apart," said Foster, who then explained that his parents had donated money and voted in favor of Proposition 8. "They weren't going to vote on it," Foster continued, "but the church told them to, so they did. They also gave money to 'Yes on 8' because the church told them to do that." Members of the Mormon church had contributed tens of millions of dollars to the "Yes on 8" campaign.

By this time, Foster was getting antsy, and led a group away from the wrought iron gates on Santa Monica Boulevard and toward a side street and up to the gates at the front entrance. Two guards in white shirts and black jackets stood on the other side of the gates, waiting for the "No on 8" crowd.


Westwood%20March%20021.jpg
Sean Hemeon returns to the Mormon Temple on Thursday afternoon.


"The Mormons have been oppressed minorities in the past," Foster said, "and now they're doing the same thing to us. It's something the church doesn't get."

Foster kept walking to the gate, and Hemeon followed. Hemeon was thinking about how things went wrong on Tuesday night.

"A lot of gay men sat back and expected other people to do the work," he said. "I was one of them."

Hemeon never would have gotten involved in the "No on 8" campaign, where he worked at a phone bank and handed out literature on Election Day, until he visited his brother in another part of California. When Hemeon drove up to the house, he saw a "Yes on 8" sign in the front yard.

"I didn't say anything at the time," Hemeon recalled, "but he knew I wasn't happy. He could see it on my face."

That happened three weeks ago. As soon as Hemeon returned to West Hollywood, where he lives, he volunteered for the "No on 8" campaign. Hemeon also sent his brother an email, telling him what he thought about the sign and that he still loved him.

"I didn't get a response back until twenty minutes after the LA Times called the vote for the 'Yes' side," he said with a bit of disappointment. "I haven't responded to him yet, but I will."

Foster stood at the gate and looked at the guards.

"Is there someone we can have a dialogue with?" he asked.

The guard told him the church was closed for the evening and no one was around. Foster stared at them. Hemeon looked at the crowd and smiled.

"In some ways, I think this thing is great," he said. "It's making us face ourselves and what we have to do for equality, and it's making my family and I talk about these things."

Foster then led the crowd back to the gates on Santa Monica Boulevard. Just before everyone started the four-mile walk to West Hollywood, he gathered them around.

"There are Mormons here tonight who have been kicked out their homes," he told them, "so we need to show up tomorrow and let them what we think!"

The crowd roared, and Hemeon said he, too, would come back to the temple for the "No on 8" rally on Thursday, even though it started in the middle of the day at 2 p.m.

"I feel like I have to be," he said. "It's a part of my healing process."

Hemeon and Foster found a ride back to West Hollywood and joined the crowd that still stood in the middle of San Vicente and Santa Monica boulevards at eleven-thirty at night. The chants, clapping, and whistles drowned out the dance music coming out from Rage, a nearby gay nightclub. People like Hemeon and Foster could be heard from several blocks away.


Contact Patrick Range McDonald at pmcdonald@laweekly.com.


Tags:

gay marriage, Los Angeles Mormon Temple, No on 8, Proposition 8, West Hollywood, Yes on 8
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Comments (110)

Bryan Harrison says:

I was raised mormon and I plan to marry my partner in 2009. I will attend the rally today, but I hope that people will try and filter out some of the returned hate they are feeling and try to make signs for the rally that don't promote hate or use profanity against the church. I feel this way because I noticed signs like "Go to hell Mormons" last night at the rally in WEHO and statements like that only feed into them believing they are right to discriminate. I know how angry and hurt we all feel for them getting so involved and using children as scare tactics, but we will make a stronger statement if we put powerful words about equal rights and to keep church and state separate. When we get news coverage, non mormons will see and it may actually work for us if we don't send hateful messages towards the church. Gay people come from all races, religions, classes and families. Once people actually find out that a friend, co-worker or family member is gay... they usually begin to soften, understand and have compassion. We need to stand united, but also need to take responsibility to not send hate back out into the world. My aunt from Utah called me the morning of the election and told me that she hopes the vote goes so that my guy and I can get married. The members of the Mormon church have compassion and it's unfortunate that many were misguided by the leaders of the church. I am pleading to you all to not send hateful messages back into the world because it will only hurt our cause in the long run to those who already have a poor opinion of our community.

There was a great sign at a rally in La Habra that said " I am a brother, son, friend, neighbor & co-worker... Don't take away my rights!!" There should never have been a vote on the rights of a minority. My partner and I attended a rally in my hometown of La Habra this past Sunday and put together a simple video to post on youtube, myspace and facebook. I urge you to be creative and use your god given talents to find ways to make an appeal to the heart of those that oppose equality to the gay community.

Goto my URL for the video link.

I am now starting to get some mean messages from those who voted Yes on 8. I get very hurt when I read them, but if I were to respond back with hatred... there will be no change in the world.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 7:29AM
Jimmy's Sneakers says:

You can definitely tell the article was written by someone who leans gay, or understands his readers. Who cares what the people were wearing unless this is a halloween party?

That is funny!

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 8:59AM
Thomas Christensen says:

I don't understand the intolerance of other people's beliefs.

Why can't Mormons choose to vote their conscience without fear of backlash from the other party? Shouldn't we be allowed freedom of thought and freedome of religion?

It seems that the liberal left promotes "tolerance" as long as your views agree with theirs. If you don't agree, intolerance reigns.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 9:48AM
Thomas Christensen says:

I don't understand the intolerance of other people's beliefs.

Why can't Mormons choose to vote their conscience without fear of backlash from the other party? Shouldn't we be allowed freedom of thought and freedom of religion?

It seems that the liberal left promotes "tolerance" as long as your views agree with theirs. If you don't agree, intolerance reigns.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 9:48AM
AxelDC says:

You would have thought that the LDS Church would have learned its lesson from its opposition to black civil rights and women's equality.

The LDS Church maintained openly racist policies until they finally relented in 1978 under intense public pressure. Now it is becoming the champion of antigay bigotry, and will once again pay the price of public disgust.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 11:17AM
David Miller says:

The LDS church and its members should not be surprised that their motives and faith are being attacked. If you play in politics you risk getting dirty. Yet they throw down the persecution card and issue “let’s be civil” statements (http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/church-responds-to-same-sex-marriage-votes) after conducting a campaign of lies and distortions that targeted civil rights for their fellow citizens. In fact, the LDS church represents a significant danger to the democratic process because 1) it enjoys tax exempt status and 2)requires strict obedience by members to the edicts of Salt Lake City. The church actively discourages dissent and promotes the philosophy that once church leaders have made a decision, “the thinking has been done.” In other words a mere suggestion of political action by church leaders causes the members to act en masse. This theocratic mindset is in direct opposition to the principles of democracy.

As a former LDS member and missionary, I wish I could be present at today’s protest. But perhaps all temples across this country could be sites of protest. We have the technical infrastructure and the know-how and the impetus to send a clear message that the tyranny of religion has no place in America. Protests, laser graffiti, blogs, videos, marches and all other forms of non-violent action should be used to shine the light on the Bible (or Book of Mormon) waving, hate-mongering cockroaches that infest this nation. We need to repeal their tax-exempt status and see if their god can still manage without money. The behavior of the LDS church and its allies is like that of a rapist, saying to his victim, “now that that’s over, let’s shake hands and be civil”. It’s not going to happen. It can’t happen.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 1:47PM
jreynolds says:

To AxelDC:
Your comment stating that the LDS Church was opposed to black civil rights and women's equality was either made out of ignorance or was a blatant lie. I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume you just had misinformation. The truth is that Utah was at the forefront of women's suffrage, becoming one of the first states to grant women the right to vote. Of the role of women, Pres. Brigham Young said, "As I have often told my sisters in the Female Relief Societies, we have sisters here who, if they had the privilege of studying, would make just as good mathematicians or accountants as any man; and we think they ought to have the privilege to study these branches of knowledge that they may develop the powers with which they are endowed. We believe that women are useful not only to sweep houses, wash dishes, make beds, and raise babies, but that they should stand behind the counter, study law or physic [medicine], or become good book-keepers and be able to do the business in any counting house, and this to enlarge their sphere of usefulness for the benefit of society at large." In regards to black civil rights, the Church was also a huge advocate. Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith stated, "No church or other organization is more insistent than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that the negroes should receive all the rights and privileges that can possibly be given to any other in the true sense of equality as declared in the Declaration of Independence." Another Church leader, Hugh B. Brown stated, "it is a moral evil for any person or group of persons to deny any human being the rights to gainful employment, to full educational opportunity, and to every privilege of citizenship. We call upon all men everywhere, both within and outside the church, to commit themselves to the establishment of full civil equality for all of God's children. Anything less than this defeats our high ideal of the brotherhood of man." I realize this is a tangent from the topic at hand: gay marriage. I want to address this, but first I had to clear up false statements that you posted. I want to first say I truly am sorry for those on this blog whose families have been at odds. I know I have seen it within my own family, and it is a hard thing. I believe I speak for your families as well when I say that we love you and are not trying to cause you hurt. I would never advocate the removal of full legal rights for gay and lesbian couples including hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights. For us, this is about defining the word marriage, a definition sacred to us; it is not about looking down upon those who live different lifestyles than us. We just believe we have an obligation to protect what has always been defined in our society as marriage between one man and one woman. Someone stated earlier that his parents voted for prop 8 and donated money because "the Church told them to." True, our leaders took a stand on this issue and asked that we follow. However, it is false to imply that we are not intelligent beings who can think and make decisions for ourselves. There is not one Mormon I know who didn't give this issue immense thought and study before taking a stance. Please respect our desire for freedom of religion and to fight for our beliefs. I have no problem with peaceful protests; it is a blessing and great gift we have in this nation to speak our minds and share our opinions with others. I only ask that the name-calling stop. I am not a bigot. I am not a hater. I am not ignorant nor intolerant. I believe in the principles of justice and equality that this nation was founded upon and that my Church strongly believes. The truth is, we differ fundamentally in this argument, and we won't convince each other. Please, let's have some respect.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 2:00PM
David Miller says:

To JREYNOLDS

The LDS church never has been a champion of civil rights. Your selective use of quotes from church leaders is misleading. To list just a few infamous quotes from LDS leaders:
“I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace"
Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church
Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level,
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today.... The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.”
SPENCER W. KIMBALL
General Conference Report, October, 1960.
Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-923.

"Racial degeneration, resulting in differences in appearance and spiritual aptitude, has arisen since the fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were born with the characteristics of the black race. (Moses 5:16-41; 7:8,12,22; Abra. 1:20-27.) The Book of Mormon explains why the Lamanites received dark skins and a degenerate status. (2 Ne. 5:21-23.) If we had a full and true history of all races and nations, we would know the origins of all their distinctive characteristics. In the absence of such detailed information, however, we know only the general principle that all these changes from the physical and spiritual perfections of our common parents have been brought about by departure from the gospel truths. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 148-151; vol. 3, pp. 313-326.)" (Mormon Doctrine 1999 printing, p. 616)

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 2:18PM
amy says:

Mormons helped give the Right to vote to women.
In the 1800's the first female doctor in the country was one of Brigham Youngs daughters...that is why they named a UNIVERSITY after him.

These people are so misinformed....

The rights of all people....MEAN the right to disagree what the definition of Marriage is.

BARACK OBAMA...believes in MARRIAGE between a Man and a Woman.

2% of California is Mormons. 1/2 of those Mormons are KIDS....how on earth can they blame the Mormons for this vote. This is absurd.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 2:22PM
Can't we all just get along? says:

I'm Mormon. I voted yes on 8, but not because my church told me to. I did so simply because I think the most important part of marriage is kids, and I believe that kids are best served by having both a mom and a dad, and I believe Prop 8 makes that more likely. I have other Mormon friends who voted No. That is their right. No one has hassled them about it, and we're all still friends. There is nothing sinister about my vote or the vote of most others (whether you voted for or against 8), just alot of differing personal opinions.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 2:32PM
Brian says:

Since the Mormons continue to lie not just about gay marriage but also about other hateful aspects of their cult, I encourage everyone to do some independent research on their evil beliefs. To rebut just the last, laughable comment about their being "huge advocates for black civil rights", here are a few quotes from Mormon leaders from the 1850's until they finally allowed blacks to be treated equal...in 1978!

The first statement by Young about a priesthood ban in the LDS Church was made on February 13, 1849. The statement — which refers to the Curse of Cain as the reason for the policy — was given in response to the question, "What chance is there for the redemption of the Negro?" Young responded, "The Lord had cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood."[
On another occasion, Young said, "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind …. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race—that they should be the ‘servant of servants’; and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree
Under the racial restrictions that lasted from the presidency of Brigham Young until 1978, persons with any black African ancestry could not hold the priesthood in the LDS Church and could not participate in some temple ordinances, such as the Endowment and celestial marriage
Don Harwell, a black LDS Church member, said, "I remember being in a Sacrament meeting, pre-1978, and the sacrament was being passed and there was special care taken by this person that not only did I not officiate, but I didn't touch the sacrament tray. They made sure that I could take the sacrament, but that I did not touch the tray and it was passed around me. That was awfully hard, considering that often those who were officiating were young men in their early teens, and they had that priesthood. I valued that priesthood, but it wasn't available
In 1954, Apostle Mark E. Petersen told BYU students: "If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection."[37] An unknown speaker at General Conference similarly taught: "[t]he Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is as nothing compared with that greater handicap that he is not permitted to receive the Priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the celestial kingdom."[
"I think the most damning statement came from one of the presidents of the church, the third president of the church, John Taylor. Basically, he said that the reason that blacks had been allowed to come through the flood, the flood of Noah, was so that Satan would have representation upon the earth, that black folks were here to represent Satan and to have a balance against white folks, who were here to represent Jesus Christ, the savior. How do you damn a people more than to say that their existence upon the earth is to represent Satan?"

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 2:58PM
Erin says:

This story is absolutely pathetic. One of the founding principles of our nation is freedom of religion. The gay community wants acceptance but when another group, especially a church, doesn't agree with them they SHOW no acceptance. Where is the equality in that?

The most assanine comment made on here is that the Mormon church will now pay the price of public disgust. Do you think the Mormon church cares what the public thinks of them? They do and preach what they believe and what they feel is best for their members. This rule applys to ALL churches.

Wake up America, people are allowed to have opinions. Even if they are considered biased from your point of view. I'm sick to death of the gay community calling for tolerance and equality when they refuse to show any.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 4:19PM
Mac says:

David & Brian,

I felt compelled to respond to your fallacious arguments. jreynolds was right in her assertions about the church's pro-equality stance on people of color and women. Instead of giving facts and church doctrine, you resorted to quotes (some of questionable origin) of individual members of the church or of leaders who prefaced their statements by saying it was opinion. Neither are representational of what the church's stance has and will be, and you are purposefully misleading those who read.

Let's look at the facts:

1) what does our scripture say, which we all adhere to?

2 Nephi 26:33: "For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female;"

2) Utah was the SECOND state to have women's voting rights, and it passed without controversy.

Just the facts, please.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 4:38PM
KJ says:

The level of bigotry involved in this entire protest is ridiculous.

Has anyone considered that there are many other churches, in addition to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, that also vehemently supported Yes On 8? No one is anxious to jump at the opportunity to protest the Baptists, or the Catholic church... What about the many other organizations and individuals that also supported the proposition? Why the attack on the LDS church? Proposition 8 was not passed at the hand of LDS church members alone. In fact, it may interest you to know that 70% of African Americans in California voted in favor of prop 8... 20% more than any other minority there.

Are you interested in protesting the black people in California as well? That would go over mighty well, I think.

And if you are going to offer a peaceful protest, how about you make yourselves respectable first. Signs offering hatred and direct bigotry only solidify my case even further that this protest is being done selfishly and in vain.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 4:42PM
KJ says:

The level of bigotry involved in this entire protest is ridiculous.

Has anyone considered that there are many other churches, in addition to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, that also vehemently supported Yes On 8? No one is anxious to jump at the opportunity to protest the Baptists, or the Catholic church... What about the many other organizations and individuals that also supported the proposition? Why the attack on the LDS church? Proposition 8 was not passed at the hand of LDS church members alone. In fact, it may interest you to know that 70% of African Americans in California voted in favor of prop 8... 20% more than any other minority there.

Are you interested in protesting the black people in California as well? That would go over mighty well, I think.

And if you are going to offer a peaceful protest, how about you make yourselves respectable first. Signs offering hatred and direct bigotry only solidify my case even further that this protest is being done selfishly and in vain.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 4:43PM
Brian says:

Mac,

How can you be slow blind/ignorant? There are hundreds and hundreds of ridiculously racist quotes, not from "dubious sources" as you say, but from your cult's founders, prophets, apostles, scripture. You lied throughout the Prop 8 debate, and you continue to lie. If you're so embarrassed about your cult's views, why not leave it instead of lie about it? Here are some more, but really anyone interested, it takes 5 seconds and an internet connection to get the truth on these crazies.

JOSEPH SMITH Discoverer of the Golden plates
First Prophet and President and Founder of the Mormon Church:

"Had I anything to do with the negro , I would confine them by strict law to their own species and put them on a national equalization.''
JOHN TAYLOR 3rd Prophet and President

"...after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation a upon a the earth as well as God;.. "
JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH 10th Prophet and President

"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. "Darkies" are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church."

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race.

BRUCE R. McCONKIE of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles
The negroes are not equal with other races when the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."

...As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the negroes"

"Cain Ham, and the whole negro race have _ cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry
ORSON PRATT of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles

"The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African Negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations of the earth


Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 4:47PM
Christa says:

To Bryan Harrison - thank you for your voice of reason and your eloquent thoughts. I'm on the other side of the fence but am facing a similar situation - my olive-branch status on Facebook urging prayers to support the gay community for the hurt they are feeling was actually attacked - from my No on 8 friends, ripping me apart for trying to be empathetic despite my Yes on 8 stance.

What you're saying goes for both sides. I think it's inappropriate for the Yes on 8 crowd to victory dance about the outcome because I understand there are many hurt feelings for my gay friends.

Empathy, respect and compassion are a MUST for ALL if we are to see any change in the world. The beauty of America is that we can air dissenting viewpoints without devolving into ad hominem attacks, violence and hate. When that respect doesn't happen, it hurts us all.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:03PM
Love One Another says:

My beliefs as a Latter-day saint may differ or be the same as other LDS members - gay, straight, black, white, asian, purple... we are all brothers and sisters. The hatred shown on this site is making Satan very happy.

In the end we will all know the Truth. Right now, I know that Satan wants the destruction of the family. He is winning this battle. Even though I know this and believe that I should do my part not to allow my family to be destroyed, I should also do my part and love everyone (no matter what they believe or practice).

The arguments on this site make me very sad. The LDS members that are gay and made comments above about their families kicking them out is heart wrenching. I have two sons who love the gospel. If I found out one or both were gay I would love them no less. They are my children just as they are Heavenly Father's children and he would not stop loving them. I will not stop loving them because they make choices that our faith teaches are sinful. Sin is found in all of mankind - church going and non-church going alike.

I pray that we will all learn that we need to put aside the hatred. For those of you that believe I am wrong in my beliefs - ok - but don't judge me and call me a cultist. That makes you guilty of the very behavior you condemn me for.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:08PM
Mac says:

Brian,

You've got to be kidding me man. . This is the last response I am going to bother giving you because you've abandoned logic altogether for rantings.

Is that the tactic? When you can't win with logic, resort to name calling? ("slow," "blind," "ignorant.").

You think I don't know my own faith? You think your "5 minutes on the internet" surmounts my 26 years of experience in the church? Do you have any idea how many MILLIONS of dollars are spent trying to mischaracterize and slander the church? Are you one of those guys who cites Wikipedia as his source of all knowledge?

Try going to the source.

Mormon doctrine comprises of the teachings of the prophets that are canonized as scripture. You can quote from people all day long, but it won't change the teachings of the faith, which are not as you continuously insinuate.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:09PM
Pro Prop 8 says:

The voice of the people of California has spoken - twice. Once in 2000, now again in 2008. You anti-prop 8 people argue about equal rights. What about 4 activist judges stealing the vote of the people earlier this year? If nothing else, we should all be concerned that activist judges are robbing us of our right to vote - one of the most precious rights we have as Americans.

And this rage against the Mormons I do not understand. Every Mormon I have ever met - and I have known several - have been nothing but good, upstanding citizens of this country. They, along with the myriads of other faiths that were part of this campaign, have simply exercised their rights as citizens of this nation in promoting a value that they - and the majority of everyone else in California - believe in. As far as I could tell during this campaign, they conducted themselves with nothing but dignity and professionalism. I have no doubt that if Prop 8 did not pass that they would not be demonstrating like this in front of all the homes of Hollywood's wealthy and famous who contributed substantially to the No on 8 campaign. They would simply accept the voice of the people and get on with their lives.

Again, the voice of the people has been heard - twice. I suggest you all deal with it. You have the exact same civil rights you've had for years. Get on with your lives before you embarass yourselves even further.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:09PM
David says:

Christa,

So you take away our rights with a sweet smile and relegate us, yet again, to second class citizens. Do you seriously expect us to be cordial in return?

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:10PM
David says:

A lot of people like me are upset at the LDS more for their lies and distortions in their Prop 8 advertising as their discriminatory policies and prosthelitizing. The LDS posture on Prop 8 and in prior attempts against blacks, women, and other populations was pretty shameful.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:20PM
David says:

Mac,

Brian is absolutely correct in his characterization of the Church's history. As a member of 38 years (until this past week when I resigned), I can speak from experience. I remember the whispers in church about interracial couples (even though it was then legal), and the self-righteous attitude of white members towards blacks. I vividly recall the homophobic sermons of bishops and general authorities. From Boyd “KKK” Packer’s talk advocating violence against gays (feel free to punch a gay if he hits on you) to a Quorum of the Seventy member preaching AIDS was God’s punishment, I’ve seen a persistent, uncharitable, dogmatic and intolerant attitude from the LDS hierarchy. Church leaders may try to hide behind a guise of light and members may try to whitewash their history, but under scrutiny the LDS church is sweet smelling cesspool that has historically done more to undermine human rights than preserve them.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:27PM
Christa says:

David, I have seen so much hatred and unbridled anger from those who preach tolerance and equality. It's a double standard - it seems like the No side has tolerance only for those who agree with them.

One of my best friends is gay. I love him dearly, and I am so, so glad that all of his rights in a partnership ARE protected - California Family Code section 297.5 says so.

What we're talking about is redefining an institution that has been around since the dawn of time because a vocal minority somehow thinks it has the "right" to do so. It's just semantics. There is no legal "right" to marriage! It's a responsibility and a legal contract, not a right, and there was nothing about Prop. 8 that took away rights that would materially affect your life. It doesn't make gays second-class citizens.

Same-sex "marriage" isn't marriage. It's like nectarines and peaches - similar, but different enough that they have different names because they aren't quite the same thing.

Why do you need the government to rubber-stamp your relationship? That is what I can't understand. CA law gives you all the same rights; federal law doesn't because of DOMA, but Prop. 8 wouldn't solve that (and I wouldn't be opposed to DOMA's repeal, either, because I don't think the goverment should treat people differently for their sexual orientation).

If same-sex marriage is approved, however, there's a chilling effect for churches. Why must secular rights be shoved above religious rights? We're not going into your homes and changing a thing.

How many lawsuits have been filed by gay activists against churches or over religious views? Many. But the other way around - how many churches have sued gay rights groups? None. It's politics forcing its way into the church - not the other way around.

And as for Mormons donating to the cause - there were many who didn't, who chose to ignore the counsel of the leaders. And you know what? That's their right to do so! One of the most foundational tenets of our faith is agency - that men need the freedom to act according to the dictates of their conscience in order to then be accountable for their own choices and not because they were compelled to act one way or another. If members chose to give of their time or means, that was their CHOICE as citizens of the United States. The Church didn't donate a cent.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:33PM
brian says:

Last post for me too, so I'll cover several points. I don't understand the mormons on this site who keep dismissing my quotes and saying I should stick to real sources. The quotes are from their cult's founder, most of their leaders throughout history and scripture. I understand that in 1978 you had a revelation and decided that blacks were now equal, and I don't really think the church is racist at this point. But all this back and forth started from jreynolds post saying/lying that the mormon church was at the forefront of civil rights, which is absolutely, positively untrue. It was a laggard, and an offensive one. That it has seen the error of its ways is great, better late than never. It also gives me hope that someday you will understand the terrible injustices you're perpetrating against gays.

I wasn't particularly interested in Mormons one way or another, except that my partner of thirteen years was a Mormon and was shunned by everyone, friends and family, in coming out. At our civil union in Vermont six years ago, not one family member or mormon friend came from his side, and remember, this wasn't marriage, it was a civil union that supposedly the mormons are ok with. But the truth is they aren't. That's just nice speak, but in reality, when a lifetime of family and friends turn their back on someone just because they're gay, it's not a doctrinal dispute about the importance of marriage, it's a pathological hatred for gays. Again, I didn't care, until this hatred bubbled up to steal my rights and dignity as a human. To the writer who asked why all the anger at the Mormons, I'd ask why all the anger at the gays? There are lots and lots of groups who violate Mormon precepts, but the church doesn't take a stand against them. Yet when a group of people with nothing at all to do with Mormons finally gets the chance for some dignity and happiness, in ways that have no impact whatsoever on any mormon no matter what your lying tv ads say, the mormons throw all their financial might to kick us in the gut.

Lastly, while it wouldn't affect Mormons at all, regardless of what they pretend to believe, it affects me tremendously. I've been living overseas for a decade now because my partner is a foreigner. If I were a wifebeater, serial divorcer, child abuser, I could marry whatever foreigner I wanted and bring her to the US. But because I'm gay, I can't, and I have to wait and wait for the kindness of strangers to allow me to return to my country. In the meantime, two grandparents have passed away and one parent is ill, but I'm on the other side of the world rather than taking care of them just because the Mormons (and yes the Catholic and Baptist churches) hate me. How's that for family values?

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 5:34PM
Erin says:

Brian,

It doesn't matter what you quote or sources you cite. Your ignorance and stupidity are laid bare by continually calling the Mormons a cult.

What makes up a cult, a group of people who think differently than you? I oppose gay marriage so I guess that gives me the right to classify your gay community as a cult.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 6:06PM
brian says:

Erin,

"...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult." Leo Pfeffer.

So for me, the Mormons moved from sect to cult this Tuesday. And feel free to call the gay community a cult, we could use the privileges and tax exemptions.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 6:17PM
phantom says:

The church never told us to vote one way or the other. The church did not give a dime to "Yes on 8" The Prophet has said we are to love everyone, be tolerant and kind. As for what individuals do and how they react to four judges over turning 61% of California's original vote banning gay marriage is really the issue. Again California voted against same sex marriage. This does not mean that gays do not have the same legal rights as everyone else. They have domestic partnerships and are protected under the law.

Where marriage is concerned it becomes an issue because it crosses the line between church and state. It is sad that people don't accept other's differences. I don't have a problem with what someone does in their own bedroom, but I do have an issue with someone telling me that my religious beliefs are wrong. I truly believe that god created us all, do I want to see anyone harmed? No, but at the same time can you assure me that my religious beliefs will not be compromised by this law not passing? Can you assure me that my children will not be taught about gay marriage in the schools? Can you assure me that your life style will not be forced on me?

I truly believe that we need to love everyone, no matter what we believe, but both sides of this Proposition gave too much propaganda and not enough facts. The very fact that people are surrounding the LDS temple in LA shows what little understanding people have of one another. The leaders of the church never direct us politically, if someone offended you, I'm sorry. If someone made you feel less then a person, again I'm sorry. However, why are you not going to all the organizations that donated money for Proposition 8. If you do your homework, not one red cent came from church headquarters. Say what you want, but don't blame the church for individual's actions. That would be like me blaming all gays for the few that have decided to vilify the church.

By the way the temple is always closed on Mondays for Family Home Evening. Any former member of the church knows this. Please do not make this about the Church of Jesus Christ if Latter Day Saints against Gays because you are upset about your position losing. As for the one man's statement about the church being persecuted, well this is true, many people were raped, murdered. robbed, and thrown out of their homes in the middle of winter. I don't believe one can say that voting one's conscience is the same as these horrible acts.

I know and understand that many gays have been persecuted in the past, but the vote was not a persecution, but a difference of opinion.

Maybe, I'm naive, but what is the difference between a civil union and a marriage? From what I understand that if two people have a civil union and decide to part, the paperwork is very similar to that of a divorce. This union does not negate their love or their commitment to one another, why must it be a marriage?

According to dictionary.com marriage is the the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

I've known many wonderful gay people throughout my life, many of whom have been the most compassionate and thoughtful people I have ever met. My life is that much fuller for having known them. I would never want them to be harmed or hurt. I love them and except them for who they and you are, why can't you except me for my religious beliefs?

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 6:21PM
Tim says:

How can the Mormon Church preach that marriage is sacred right between a man and a woman, when they really believe in polygamy: marriage between a MAN and womEn.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 8:23PM
Allison says:

I grew up in California and I was friends with all of the gays in our high school. I am LDS as well. I love my friends who are gay, but voting pro prop 8 is voting what I believe. LDS were not the only ones who voted for 8. Marriage, according to the LDS belief, is ordained of God between a man and a woman. We believe in the Bible. Clearly many people in California believe the same thing, so why tell us to vote against God? I would much rather put my faith in the trust of God than on the arm of the flesh. If we voted or stood up for something otherwise, we would be hypocrites and mocking what we state that we believe.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 8:32PM
Allison says:

Tim, by the way, the Mormon church does not believe in polygamy. Thanks though!

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 8:35PM
tim says:

aah, but it does, they just don't practice it

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 8:53PM
TJ says:

Phantom and Allison: The problem with the Mormon members “voting on an issue based on their conscience belief” is a false premise when they vote NOT their own conscience but the Brethren’s conscience. Whatever happened to thinking for yourself, rather than having someone telling you how to think? Your missionaries preach Satan plan was to take away free agency—yet you have no agency if you act as a hive rather than as individuals. Would you have an opinion if the 12 apostles did not give you an opinion?

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 8:56PM
tim says:

Allison...The Mormons do believe in polygamy according to their late apostle Mr Bruce R. McConkie found in his book, “Mormon Doctrine” 2nd edition found under the heading “Plural Marriage,” page 577-579 and the practice will commence again after the second coming.”

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 9:06PM
Christa says:

TJ, I studied this issue out THOROUGHLY before making my decision. While that choice was undoubtedly influenced by my faith, I found plenty of studies and evidence, both sociological and anecdotal, that pushed me over the line.

What I think the secular population doesn't realize is that people will put God before politics, just as you will be influenced by your lack of God or religion, your faith in the secular and Godless. For the most part, the religious are fine with letting you all go about your business unscathed - but push and push until we're in a corner and are forced to take a stance, we WILL stand up for what we believe in.

And there is NOTHING wrong with that! Our faith and our views are just as valid as your lack of faith and your views. Again, where is the tolerance and equality for religion? And where in the Constitution is there a "right" to marry?

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 9:36PM
thunar says:

The BBC News Frontpage just showed me live footage of several of LAPD beating a gay rights person with their sticks and fists and boots in front of thousands of witnesses and now millions around the world. Is this shades of Rodney King again where numerous cities burned after the pro-nazi initial verdict? The feds need to act quickly against the fascist rogue subculture in many Amerikan city so called law enforcemnet scenarios. Because if Obama's Feds do not act quickly against the pogromistic third world uneducated fascist brutality/corruption then it is likely the cities shall burn bigger than ever. Let us civilize America at last.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 9:48PM
Brian says:

Christa,

Believe me the one thing we "secular and godless" know is that you'll put God before politics, and I'm really surprised you thought we doubted that. The problem with that is that mormons are a small minority in a country with hundreds of small minority religions, and if each one decided to meddle in politics and shove their dogmas down everyone's throats, you'd be as unhappy as we are. Your fundamentalist Christian allies, who say much more disparaging things about mormons than we do, are much, much bigger than you, and can vote in all sorts of anti-mormon prejudice if/when they decide they no longer need you. And when they do, you'll find that this stunt you've pulled means you won't have many friends in your corner.

Lastly, the big disconnect in this whole discussion is that prop 8 had nothing to do with religion. Nobody pushed you into a corner, you invaded our secular corner by denying us secular, government issued marriage licenses. Ask your mormon comrades in New England how many gay marriages and civil unions they've been forced to perform, or how it's affected their religious practices at all. It's had no effect, and everybody knows it can't. I couldn't care less what you do, say or believe in your temples and churches, but I will never understand why you have to inflict your bitterness on me. It's not religion, it's evil bigotry.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 9:49PM
Christa says:

Brian, Mormons did NOT pass Prop. 8 alone! It's numerically impossible. I support it, and I stand by that, too - but I think it needs to be noted that many other churches supported it, too. What I meant but didn't state explicitly is that in an election that drew record crowds of Latino and Black voters for Obama, they drew Catholics and Christians who would vote faith above party for Prop. 8. I was not referring to Mormons alone.

As for being pushed into a corner, yes, religion in the country has been chipped away at by secularism. You cannot deny that. There comes a point where all of those straws break the camel's back, where you finally have to stand up for your beliefs. For many, Prop. 8 was it. You have to draw a line in the sand, and redefining marriage (which does not affect any "rights," as they're all already protected in CA Family Code section 297.5) was where many of us draw the line.

I'm not bitter, but I will stand up for my beliefs. And you know what? The people voted - and the vast majority of those people were not Mormon.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 10:05PM
omar says:

I sugest to all the lds active members to stay out of this and pray at home whit your familys and remember to ask for all the people that are blind or the ones that can not see that all this is happening for one reason; satan wants that we fight just like is happening rihgt now, again stay out of this as I do...

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 10:16PM
brian says:

No, but mormons funded at least half of the hatefilled campaign, and are entirely responsible for the constant lies that misled just enough people to get the whims of some ancient Utah men enshrined in California's constitution. Remember the proposition was way behind in the polls until the wall of mormon money came pouring in. Mormons voted for the proposition because they hate gays, which is actually ok, I'm not saying they shouldn't vote of course. But the vast majority of people aren't mormons, but were swayed by nonstop commercials lying to them that their kids will be forced to go to gay weddings, their pastors arrested, all sorts of crap. So you won, but only by lying to everyone. And Omar, isn't that something Satan would do?

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 10:31PM
TJ says:

Omar and Christa:
Just be careful, if your church brethren switch your water sacrament for Kool-aid.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 10:38PM
Mike says:

Mormons, like gays, have been subjected to persecution. They both belong to groups that have been branded by society as being “odd” or “queer”. Proposition 8 passed because it is what the majority of the voting public wanted. The Mormon people are defending their religious beliefs. They are no different than all of the other faiths that spoke out in favor of 8. I guess they must be an easy target. To all you gays that persecute Mormons for their religious beliefs: Shame on you! You all look like hypocrites. You tried to redefine the definition of marriage. The people of California have spoken. They said NO!

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 10:51PM
You lost says:

wait didn't you guys lose the vote? you are all pathetic

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 11:10PM
Brian says:

No, Mike, the California legislature and judiciary redefined marriage and opened it to gays, which was supported by the people in opinion polls as well. Then the zealots got involved and brainwashed enough people to strip the right away and redefine marriage. The mormons (and knights of columbus and southern baptists, to be inclusive) are not defending their religioius beliefs, as this is not a religious question, it's a civil one. They are persecuting gays by writing prejudice and bigotry into the constitution. And you're crazy if you think a few anti-mormon comments on a blog is equivalent to eliminating the rights of gays.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 11:12PM
MuchoStr8 says:

I find it interesting that many of you claim to have left the Mormon Church "after many years" , when clearly one can tell by your arguments that this is not true. Either you were never part of it and now you're trying to sound like an authority on the subject or you pehaps joined along time ago and finding the church was not going to change just to accept what you do, you finally decided to make it official. This argument about some of you beign ex-mormons is just as cliche as the one "we" use: "some of my best friends are gay".
The church has not chaged its stance regarding Homosexual marriage in all of its history. Why do some of you act so mad and surprised now? did you expect that it was just going to sit around and let you indoctrinate CA voters and not have a say about it?
The church, as centralized and organized as it is, makes an easy target for protesters but regardless of what you say about it, the truth is that it alone would not have been able to pull the results of this past election on its own. It was a tough battle and even though you might complain the system did what it was designed to do. You might not be happy with the results, and I am definately not happy with the margin by wich we succeeded, but we take whatever we can. You would have done the same way.
Honestly and whether you believe me or not, best wishes to all.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 11:28PM
brian says:

MuchoStr8,
As far as I can tell, only one person has claimed to be an ex-mormon in this whole thread, I think David, and he left the thread a while ago, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Similarly, nobody expressed surprise that the mormon church is bigoted, in fact most of the comments are providing ample evidence of its bigotry, so again I don't know who you think is surprised that mormons oppose gay marriage.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 11:39PM
a.n. says:

I don't recall seeing any hate adds from the mormons. I have seen several adds from the proposation 8 campain and organizations that support the sanctity and protection of marriage, but I don't recall a single one being hate based. There are principles that many people feel will cause harm to the fundimental building blocks of society. This does not mean we dislike any person. Many people made there decision to protect something they hold sacred, marriage. As much as we may want to debate it, marriage between a man and woman was ordained of God before any of us were here to try to debate its legitimacy. Who are we to try to change what he has defined? He loves us all, but he does have things he considers to be sacred and eternal laws he has established. Voters voiced their opinion and marriage, something they deam to be sacred, can remain as such. It was a stand to protect our religious beliefs. Benefits, taxes, etc. are not the things that were voted on here. We happen to feel that marriage is very sacred and special and ask that others respect this institution. Even with different beliefs, I think most people are willing to respect sacred edifices of other religions, out of respect for their beliefs. I hape that similar consideration and reverence can be given to those that revere the institution of marriage as sacred, as has been done since the beginning of time. Thanks.

Posted On: Thursday, Nov. 6 2008 @ 11:51PM
Anonymous says:

a.n., Of course the ads can't be overtly hateful, then the mask would have dropped and people would see the prop 8 movement for the hateful bigotry it is. Instead they relied on lies to mislead everyone. So you didn't notice it because you're a true believer, and will swallow anything your church tells you to. Of course I'm biased in the other direction, but let's go to California state officials, keeping in mind that the state opposed gay marriage at the supreme court but lost, so they're hardly biased:

California Superintendent of Public Instruction Jack O’Connell and his predecessor Delaine Eastin spoke out against the campaign today, along with California State Board of Education president Ted Mitchell, saying the proposition is not tied to public schools.

Nor were they mild in their reaction.

Mitchell said he is “disgusted” by the “Yes on 8″ campaign, “in particular this misleading set of advertisements about the impact of Prop. 8 on education. This is political campaigning at its worst,” he said.

O’Connell, in a prepared statement, called the ads “alarming” and “irresponsible.”

“Our public schools are not required to teach about marriage,” he said. “And, in fact, curriculum involving health issues is chosen by local school governing boards.”

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:08AM
brian says:

Sorry, I forgot to add my name to the previous comment about the school board, in case anyone wants to attack it by name.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:16AM
Kol says:

What I find interesting is that people keep saying that the Mormons were saying lies to try and promote hate. One thing is is that the mormon church wasn't trying to promote hate but establish their belief that marriage is between one man and one woman, and the other thing is is that those against prop 8 said a lot of ridiculous things and made a lot of rediculous commercials as well, for example, the infamous commercial showing two female mormon missionaries ransacking a homosexual couples home and ripping up the marriage certificate. Not only was it ridiculous but you could say it was also promoting hate against mormons. So before someone tries to say that mormons were promoting hate remember that those against prop 8 were doing the same thing.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:17AM
brian says:

Sorry, I forgot to add my name to the previous comment about the school board, in case anyone wants to attack it by name.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:17AM
brian says:

But there's a big difference Kol. The missionary ad may have been tasteless, but it's message was absolutely true. The mormon church absolutely wants to rip up any gay marriage, although of course it uses bags of money to put its bigotry on california's constitution rather than physically ripping up licenses. But the pro prop 8 ads are just outright lies, a bunch of scaremongering about the gays corrupting your children and churches. Both may overdramatize, but only the mormon ads are outright lies.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:24AM
Anonymous says:

Well maybe some of the things that were said against gay marriage were over exaggerated, but there was some truth to what they said. Another important thing to note is that it wasn't just the mormons who were for prop 8 but a lot of other churches and groups, i don't know for sure but it's possible that some of the things said that were lies were not from the mormon church, but i don't know. We shouldn't just assume that it's all the mormons fault. Another thing that i think that should be addressed is that protesting in front of mormon temples doesn't really do anything especially when holding up signs that say things like mormons can go to hell. This is the opposite of what you should be doing, your goal is to get rid of hate but these signs promote it.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:34AM
brian says:

Sorry, but there really was no truth to it. Gay marriage is just that, marriage between gays. It's not about free speech, freedom of religion, sex education, or anything else. Completely agree that it's not just the mormons who are responsible for these lies, but again they funded the majority of the campaign, and deserve the majority of the blame. I have no doubt that messages on signs at the rally will be offensive, but if we want to broaden the discussion to the vile things said about gays on signs during the campaign, you will lose that argument too. I've stayed away from referencing the disgusting language used to attack gays throughout the campaign, because I really don't believe that was mormon. But it does give an excellent window on the reality behind the nice, but false, face of the prop 8 campaign.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:42AM
brian says:

Sorry, but there really was no truth to it. Gay marriage is just that, marriage between gays. It's not about free speech, freedom of religion, sex education, or anything else. Completely agree that it's not just the mormons who are responsible for these lies, but again they funded the majority of the campaign, and deserve the majority of the blame. I have no doubt that messages on signs at the rally will be offensive, but if we want to broaden the discussion to the vile things said about gays on signs during the campaign, you will lose that argument too. I've stayed away from referencing the disgusting language used to attack gays throughout the campaign, because I really don't believe that was mormon. But it does give an excellent window on the reality behind the nice, but false, face of the prop 8 campaign.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:43AM
brian says:

Also sorry about the double posting!

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:46AM
phantom says:

For those that think the church told me how to vote and that I just followed blindly that is an assumption on someone's part. I did close to 12 hours of research on both sides of the argument. When I finished doing the research it came down to four judges taking my democratic vote away from 2002. When the first vote about gay marriage came to us to vote on then.

Both arguments are flawed, both sides lied to the public to get what they wanted. Any time you use emotion and lies the argument that you make is weak. Therefore, before telling me that I voted blindly. I ask you, how many hours of research did you put into this? Those that think I follow blindly in religion and criticize me, how many only watched the tv and allowed that religion to make the choice for them? How many only read the newspapers, which are biased? I actually read court cases and went to each and every site on both sides and did my research. Before accusing me of anything, maybe you should look at yourself and ask, did you vote blindly?

I believe in the democratic process. I have my religious beliefs, whether you believe with that or not makes no difference. Since, under the Constitution I am afforded the right to believe the way I want, I have never promoted and never would promote anyone being hurt for their beliefs. Remember we live in the United States of America, meaning that I can vote the way I wish and without fear of persecution.

You blame The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, why not blame Obama, since that would make as much sense. Afterall, he brought out the African American and Latino voters, who overwhelmingly voted Yes on 8. They make up a much larger population than the members of the LDS church. Did I fail to mention that many other Christian churches backed this, yet the gay community is only attacking the minority of the people that voted. I guess hate sells? I guess lies sell, maybe that is why they chose to do what they did last night. Yes, 15 million dollars was raised by individual members of the church. This was not church money. Last I checked you can spend your hard earned money the way an individual chooses. Unless, of course the gay community is saying that is unconstitutional too!

By attacking the minority, do you think you will gain support, or just look like the bully on the block?

Again, I will state what the church has told us to do time and time again, love our neighbors. I do and do not believe my vote is anything but an informed, educated vote of my conscious.

If you are saying that I need to change that, then you are asking me to change my religious beliefs. Shame, that would be like me saying to change your beliefs about being gay.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 7:05AM
Dana says:

The gay community must understand how a majority of Christian heterosexual people think concerning the word marriage. And I am hopeful that many Christian gays and lesbians that read my words also understand the sacred union of marriage as well. This is not about equal rights. This is about the LEGAL terminology of "marriage."
As a Christian, I consider the word "marriage" a sacred word.
Also as a heterosexual Christian woman- and this part is important for the gay community to understand and gain further acceptance- I do NOT tout or flaunt my sexuality as a way to identify myself. I have many gay friends and family members who think the same as me. Just like me and my husband, our gay and lesbian friends keep their sexuality a private and sacred bond with their spouses/significant others. In OUR family and friendships, we don't get together on Saturday nights and talk about our sex lives, nor do we flaunt our sexuality in front of each other. We treat each other in respect, equality and with love. OUR marriage bonds are sacred!
Our bodies and sexuality, whether we are straight or gay, are sacred and should NOT be used as the identifying factor for anyone to gain acceptance... or as it appears to me and many of my Christian gay friends- to gain special rights.
As such, I think a better way to achieve equality in the LAWS is to remove the word marriage completely and replace it with legal terms for all people. Call ALL adult people who want to consent to share their lives and all they legally have together- a legal union- and leave the word marriage out of it.
Leave marriage, which IS a spiritual bond, to those best qualified to deal with it; the churches and those in positions of spiritual leadership.
Leave the state laws to legal and binding documents- problem solved. (***Certainly, anyone who has been through the divorce system understands that the courts don't care about the morality or spiritual meaning of marriage... they only care about what is going to be split up- legally.)
If the word "marriage" is completely removed from our court system- everyone is treated the same and marriage is kept what it should be- a sacred union between two adults. Then, we are all equal under state law and free to "marry" who we want!
I should also mention, I am an ex-Mormon who chose to leave the faith because their beliefs just didn't mix with my Christian beliefs. Yet, I think that what happened at the Mormon Temple last night was just as bad as some of the other hateful acts we have ALL witnessed against religions in the past. These protests do NOT generate love and compassion. They only spew resentment, blame and discontent. As a Christian, what I saw last night was a people's holy Temple being desecrated. This was wrong and only hurt my friends- the good Christians in the Lesbian and Gay community. Peace and love to all!

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 9:20AM
brian says:

Phantom,

I can't follow your argument sufficiently to refute it, as it meanders all over the place. You seem to have assumed the mantle of victim here, and are pretending that gays are trying to take your vote away or say you should vote against your religion, or your donation was unconstitutional. But nobody is saying that. But it's you and your church that tried, and succeeded, in taking my rights away, not the other way around. As I"ve said several times in this thread, mormons are wrong about this issue, but I fully understand why they voted the way they did. For the large majority, it was because the church told them to, you apparently went in a different direction, but ended up in the same place. Why? Because you're biased by what the church tells you. If you really researched this, you'd see that this issue has nothing to do with you. The mormon church is against extramarital affairs, among many other things, and this is something that could affect most mormons' marriages. So why not sponsor an amendment to criminalize these? Instead you pick on gays, when gays just want to marry other gays, not marry mormons. Our marrying won't have any impact on you, and any research you did that showed otherwise is flawed or fraudulent. You picked on us because we're a small group and unliked by many/most..

How would blaming obama make as much sense as blaming the mormon church? Obama was against prop 8, the mormon church funded the majority of the campaign that spewed lies all over the tv. For most people who don't really care that much about this issue, these mormon tv lies are all they used for information before casting their vote. You can hide behind your small percentage of the population to say the mormons didn't steal our rights from us, but the money trail says otherwise.
Lastly, I'll just address this stupid talk about four judges taking your vote away. "The people" don't have an unfettered right to persecute minorities they don't like. The constitution protects minorities, and that's the whole point of a supreme court, to enforce the provisions of the constitution. In 2002, a ballot initiative was passed to take away the rights of a minority. The court saw it for what it was, an unconstitutional initiative, and said so. This protection of minority rights is so intrinsic to our democracy, and it's very unfortunate that many of the groups who opposed us have forgotten the protections they receive from this very mechanism they now claim to despise. Of course the undemocratic claim is even sillier when you factor in that that the legislature also passed a gay marriage law, and the governor opposed prop 8. So in the rare instance where the judiciary, legislature and executive are all in agreement, it's hardly the case of four judges dictating their whims. But for now you've succeeded in inserting your narrowminded religious views into the constitution by funding a campaign of lies and deception, and overturning the will of the democratically elected government and the constitutional protections accorded to minorities. I guess that's what you're calling democracy, but it's really the opposite.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 10:00AM
Erin says:

Anyone who truly believes that Mormons only do what their leaders tell them to are absolutely naive, ignorant and not thinking clearly. I'm so sorry that you are so scared and unhappy as to attack other people's religion. How pathetic is that?!?!?

What about the "former members" quoted in this piece? They obviously didn't do what their leaders told them to do!

Why is it that because they have beliefs that differ from yours you assume they are somehow brainwashed and not given the right to do as they please?

Everyone who is blaming the Mormons has obviously not done their homework. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH MORMONS IN CALIFORNIA TO GET THE VOTE PASSED ON THEIR OWN! The reason why the vote passed was because of the large group of minorities, who by the way also oppose gay marriage, voted that way too.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 10:15AM
Brian says:

Dana,
I disagree with almost everything you say except your solution to the problem. I don't flaunt my sexuality, and I certainly don't have special rights! I can't even live in the US because I'm gay and married to a foreigner. If I were straight, no problem, I could get drunk, marry the first woman I met and take her back to America with me. But after more than a decade together, we still can't live in my country. There are a long list of discriminating policies that affect me every day, so I find it really offensive that you think I'm asking for special rights.

But if it makes it easier, I'm absolutely ok with getting the government out of the marriage business. If marriage is really a sacred, religious event, the government shouldn't be involved. We can all get civil unions by the government, your church can marry you, and more openminded churches like the United Church of Christ can marry me if I wanted. But the church marriages would be ceremonial, and the government civil union would determine our legal rights/responsibilities. That's perfectly acceptable to me, as it's treating everyone equally. It also eliminates the confusion we have here with people saying marriage is sacred so the government should forbid it to gays. If it's really sacred, the government shouldn't be involved, and if it's not, then the government shouldn't discriminate based on some religions' views.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 10:18AM
Erin says:

Brian,

This IS about freedom of religion! This whole story is about people protesting in front of a religion's holy temple!

That's what makes it sad. By doing such things, the gay community has MADE it a freedom of religion issue.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 10:25AM
brian says:

The protest had nothing to do with freedom of religion. Nobody is saying close the mormon church down. We're saying that the mormon church should get back to religion and stop interfering in politics! Go believe whatever you want, preach whatever bigotry you feel like, but leave us alone and stop breaking up our families. It's really simple.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 10:30AM
Erin says:

The same can be said to you!

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 10:33AM
brian says:

Your comment makes no sense, Erin. Gayness isn't a religion, so saying we should get back to religion and stop interfering with politics makes no sense. And we're not trying to break up your families, and we have never cared one way or another about mormons until you came after us and attacked us. I guess you think a lame protest outside a temple is equivalent to destroying thousands of families and writing bigotry into the constitution, but it's really, really not.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 10:41AM
an says:

You have a point in what you said, Brian. The vote Tuesday was a success for religions to maintain their religious freedoms. The courts tried to take that away a few months ago in deciding against public opinion and religion. So, a stand had to be taken to protect something so precious to so many. Fortunately it worked.

As far as the politics goes, I think any person of any religion that is a legal voting citizen of this country should be involved in politics and have the right to vote. I don't think it is right to descriminate against anyone based on religion.

Hopefully, all can move on and strive to live meaningful productive lives.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 10:51AM
brian says:

OK, you'll all be glad to hear this is my last comment, as I just keep hearing the same wrong arguments from your side again and again. AN, religions didn't maintain their religious freedom on tuesday. That freedom is protected by the constitution, and was, is and always will be irrelevant to the issue of gay marriage. No churches will ever have to perform gay marriages, it's a complete lie cooked up by the mormon funded prop 8 campaign to scare people. The courts tried to protect a minority, just like they protect all your religious freedoms that you cherish. What do you think would happen if we put mormonism on the ballot for a popular vote? You're about as popular as gays are. But you're protected by the constitution, and the same judges who tried to protect me would protect you against oppression by the minority. The only difference is I would never support this oppression, but you mormons are very happy to oppress me. And nobody is trying to take away your right to vote, and nobody wants to discriminate on the basis of religion. These are all just silly claims that move away from the central issue. Gay marriage is an issue for gays, about gays, and has nothing to do with religion, unless you want an Iran-style theocracy where the priests and mullahs dictate the law based on what's in their religious book. Assuming you don't want that, then we can all live together peacefully. You keep going to church, raise your family, keep your beliefs, vote your conscience. I get to marry the man I love, and live together as a family, and don't bother anyone. Deal?

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 11:11AM
brian says:

Sorry, just a correction, obviously I meant "oppression by the majority", not minority in the above post. Bye

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 11:14AM
Erin says:

Brian,

This entire story and most of the comments thereafter are bashing mormons.

My comment DOES make sense. And I repeat: Leave us alone. Leave us alone to practice, preach, live and yes VOTE as we see fit.

We are a people that take our faith extremely seriously. And we make decisions IN ALL AREAS based upon that faith. So you can continue to convince yourself that this has nothing to do with religion but it does. Mormons live their faith. Everything they do is based upon religion. And how dare you imply that I shouldn't think about and consider my faith when casting my vote.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 11:27AM
brian says:

The only reason I got started in these comments is because I couldn't stand the lies generated by the prop 8 campaign that scared a majority into voting for it. But the lies just keep flying. And Erin, you're just the latest perpetrator of this fraud. I think I've said a dozen times that you should consider your faith when you vote, I expect it, understand it etc. So why end your post with "how dare you imply that I shouldn't think about and consider my faith when casting my vote"? It's just another lie to rile people up and distract them from the real issue. Sorry but I really can't stand the lies and distractions, are you that afraid of your positions that you can't deal in truth? Speaking of lies, I know I just did by saying the previous post was my last. But I just can't stand the way people like Erin lie to fool people. But now I'm really not going to answer, so Erin and company, feel free to post whatever lies you want here, I will no longer try to get the truth out there.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 11:35AM
Erin says:

I know you're not going to answer so I'm just going to say: Keep kidding yourself by thinking we are lying. It doesn't make any sense anyway. How are we lying when we are expressing what we believe?

I feel sorry for you, that you think your life is that bad. And no,

I'm not scared of anything. I put my faith in a God that I know loves me (and loves you) and I know he'll protect me no matter what. Even if all my rights are taken away.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 11:39AM
Dalin says:

I'm going to be straight up....You will never EVER change mormon opinion by protesting in from of a mormon temple.
Protesting in front of their temple will only make them A LOT more pissed off at you. Their resolve will grow stronger, their donations larger, and their fight bigger.
You guys are such idiots....instead of helping your cause you are hurting it!

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 12:09PM
Sheela says:

Brian,
Thank you for stringing this blog along. After reading this string to the end, I defiantly support your cause now. You were the only one that argued their beliefs and ideals with eloquence and patience through this passionate sea, which I now recognize as bigotry.
Good luck on your cause and I hope you take it to the Supreme Court!

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 4:41PM
phantom says:

Brian,

If you have a hard time following my thought process than I'm sorry. I'm basically trying to say bashing Mormon's is as dumb as blaming Obama.

Also, just because I didn't vote the way you wanted me to, doesn't mean my position is wrong. I believe that you have a right to the way you believe and had you won, I would have been ok with that too.

I liked what someone said, take the word marriage out of the whole mess and what we have is a domestic partnership or civil union for everyone. Leave marriage to those that believe that this is based on religion.

I just don't understand the hatred toward the minority that voted and not toward the majority. I will state it again, both sides based their arguments on lies and emotion. It came down to what I wanted to vote for, while it might not be what you wanted me to do, I'm not mad that you voted no. This is America and we are afforded the right as a citizen to vote the way we want.

As for you thinking that I twisted this around to make myself the victim, I'm not the one screaming at the minority and throwing a temper tantrum because I didn't get what I wanted.

The money spent on both sides could have gone to help a lot of kids that need help. Many in this thread keep saying that the 15 million dollars that was given is the issue and why Gays protested the Mormon temple. What about the other 55 million that both sides spent? The 15 million is only 27% of the total for both sides. Where did the other 73% come from? Assuming that each side spent 35 million for their lies and emotion that means the LDS members, not the church contributed 43% of the total of the campaign. Still this is not the majority of the money.

Where did the majority of the money come from for your side of this debate? I'm sure some spent more than others. Wouldn't you agree? So your argument is that because 43% of the money spent to defeat your argument came from individuals that happen to come from a specific denomination and therefore deserve the persecution? Where did the other 57% of the money come from for Vote Yes for Prop 8?

I guess because the minority that contributed 43% is the easiest target it made sense? After all why not look at the fact that the majority of Californian's are not ready for your way of thinking. It doesn't mean that it is wrong, it means that it is a difference of opinion. You will say that this is about your Constitutional rights, I'm going to say it is about my religious beliefs. We are at a stale mate. Meaning the law will have to find a middle ground to appease both sides. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, which is fine. This is what makes America work.

This is my last post, I wish everyone the best whatever side of this heated issue you're on, maybe coming together and talking about a middle ground would be a more productive use of time, instead of protesting.

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 5:15PM
tim says:

The Mormon Church argument about marriage being sacred is a big farce, since they believe the only marriage acceptable before their god is a marriage performed in the temple. To Mormon, a civil or any other religious marriage is a union, or contract that dissolves at death. But if the marriage is performed by a Mormon priesthood holder in the temple, then it becomes a celestial marriage. To Mormons, this celestial marriage is an eternal sacrament and the only path to becoming a god in the afterlife. Therefore all unsanctified marriages are obsolete. They must be sanctified within a temple to be bound in the hereafter; moreover, Mormons should not care about marriages performed outside their temple walls since they are not solemn or blessed.
Additionally to Mormons, marriage can even be seen as the cornerstone of their misogynist beliefs. For example, if a man marries in the temple for all time an eternity and his “celestial wife” should die, he is allowed to remarry, or be sealed to another woman in the temple. If that woman should die, he could do it again, and again, and again—being married for all eternity to all those women. Now, if a woman should marry in the temple, and her husband dies, she cannot remarry in a sealing ceremony to a new man for all eternity unless she seeks a temple marriage annulment from the Mormon prophet or first presidency of the church. The woman is allowed to be married/sealed to only one man while a man to as many women as possible. So is polygamy being practiced? Yes! Not on earth, but in the hereafter according to Mormon belief.
Good luck Mormon women sharing your sexist man in the hereafter and way to go Mormon men—get that harem going in heaven—don’t forget to include a variety of blonde, brunettes and redheads for I am sure your women will look buxom, curvy, and delightsome in their celestial resurrected hot bodies—sisters, don’t forget to ask for celestial equality with your gods—have fun being one of many in a harem for all eternity.
All kidding aside, these are not lies but Mormon dogma. This is Mormon belief on marriage – anyone whose marriage wasn’t sealed in a temple has a marriage that is terminated upon death. Therefore, preserving the sanctity of marriage could not possibly be the motivation for their protest for gay marriage leading to only one reason, bigotry. Mormons do not believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, Mormons belief that marriage is between one man and many women. So why worry about anyone else’s marriage? According to their faith, none of our marriages (non-Mormon marriages) are valid either…So why JUST target gay marriage?

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 7 2008 @ 6:49PM
nicole says:

I speak to all people who are acting so hatefully because of proposition 8 being passed. I am writing to defend why I supported and still support Prop 8. First let’s get this right that this proposition is not a matter of someone’s ‘rights.’ It is a matter of what IS right. Homosexual people have all the rights that we do, but that does not mean they will be allowed to completely redefine marriage just because that is their view and their desire. Suppose that a 16yr old girl wanted to marry her 30 year old boyfriend. They are madly in ‘love.’ They are each other’s soul mates. Why shouldn’t they have the right to marry when they are in love? What if a colleague wanted to marry both men that she is in love with? Isn’t it her human ‘right’ to marry them both if she so desires? Again, these are not matters of a person’s ‘rights,’ but what is right and what is not.

Now, I am Catholic, and yet I also feel to defend Mormons. I stood with many to support Prop 8, and some of them are my very good friends. And just like I am not what many have tried to paint them as, neither are they. We are NOT prejudice, evil, mean, or belligerent just because we are standing up for what we believe in, just like homosexuals are. But Mormons are not the only ones who fought to get Prop 8 passed, and yet they are unfairly being targeted. Not that I want our churches to be the target for hate crimes, but why do the Mormons get all the credit when they are not the only ones who fought for this to pass? What has caused this hatred to be targeted against them just because they are defending what they believe in, just like homosexuals are? What do you think we (all the supporters of Prop 8) and the Mormons would do if the roles were reversed and Prop 8 was not passed? Do you think we would have all sorts of riots, that we would go out and target anyone who is a homosexual and do hate crimes against them? Do you think we would so unfairly target a group of people just because they had different views than us and they were the majority? Do you think we would slander their names, spread all sorts of lies, and call for them to be targeted for all sorts of crimes? It is absolutely absurd and completely wrong, and YOU should be the ones who are shamed for what you are doing. When people look at what is going on in the news, who do you think they will see as the wrong-doers the people who are being so prejudicial? Who do you think they will see as being so ignorant and hypocritical? You people call for love and tolerance of your beliefs and for your own ‘rights’ to be protected, and yet look at how you are so wrongfully targeting a group of people because of their beliefs and because of how they used their rights of democracy to defend their beliefs. It is sickening and the most hypocritical I have ever seen anyone be. Again, YOU should be ashamed of how intolerant and how hypocritical you are acting.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 11:48AM
tim says:

So, Mormons...cat got your tongue?

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 12:23PM
Kevin says:

Nicole,

Your example is stupid. The sixteen year old girl will soon be an eighteen year old girl, and can marry then. But because of your bigotry you've arranged it so that two men can never marry. We do NOT have all the right you do. We can not marry, obviously, because you took that right away from us, the right confirmed by the supreme court, the legislature and the governor. In many states we don't have the right to anything really, can be fired for being gay, are discriminated against regularly, penalized in the tax code, can't leave inheritance to our partner, visit our partner in hospital, etc. What planet do you live on???

Hatred is aimed at mormons because they funded 2/3 of the total prop 8 campaign spending, and overwhelmingly voted for the discrimination. THe catholic church is certainly just as bigoted as the mormon church, but fortunately catholics aren't as brainwashed, so they split on the vote and contributed much less. Hence, less anger, but don't kid yourself, obnoxious groups like the knights of columbus are still hated, if that makes you feel better.
Lawful protests are not hate crimes, idiot. Bashing and killing gays are hate crimes, so don't dare make that comparison. And of course you'd be on the streets if we took away your rights, so your comparison is again fatally flawed. You stole our fundamental right to happiness, so we organized a protest. Big deal. If prop 8 failed, no right of yours would be affected at all except for your dubious right to discriminate against a minority. An equivalent example would be if we passed a proposition banning the catholic and mormon churches. Would you be on the streets then? Of course you would, because your rights were violated, just like ours. Try to think outside your sheltered little life and put yourselves in someone else's shoes. The constitution is meant to defend minority rights against obnoxious majorities, and the fact that California uniquely allows obnoxious majorities to convert the constitution into an instrument of hate is nothing to be proud of.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 1:11PM
Kevin says:

Oh, I forgot to add that your closing comment that "it is sickening and the most hypocrical you have ever seen anyone be" should be enshrined in the Idiot's Hall of Fame. There is nothing hypocritical about protesting. We opposed your bigotry on election day, and we oppose it now. That's called consistency, not hypocricy. Hypocricy is when someone says I have no problem with gays, many of my friends are gay, but I voted to break up their families and enshrine my bigotry against them in the constitution. Your english lesson is now complete.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 3:34PM
tim says:

Mormons, you lost my respect. You attacked a minority group to discriminate and defend your objections to gays for being/ existing. The fact is you would have had my respect if you voted no on Prop 8 and defended someone else’s right to marry. In 1890, your fourth prophet Wilfred Woodruff, the same who took a bullet for Joseph Smith was forced by federal law to stop practicing polygamy, if he did not, all your lands and temples would have been confiscated by the government. Only when all your religious leaders were hunted down and locked up because polygamy was unconstitutional did Mormons surrender their open practice. Of all the organized religions, Mormons should have been the first to support and protect Gay rights, since they knew and know how it feels to be persecuted. But no, you did not defend the underdog. The Mormon way of life is a belief, while homosexuality is not a belief, but a state of being: a human being who is not accepted by the Mormon church.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 3:47PM
nicole says:

Wow, Kevin, you are a very angry person. I know, I know, you would say I would be in the same situation. But sorry, I wouldn't be anything like you. You are right that we would (and of course did) defend our own beliefs. The whole state of California did, and they spoke. But to single out a group, to persecute them when you're trying to tell people not to persecute you, is in fact hypocritical. So there's you're english lesson right back at you. Again, you have your right to protest. But the fact that you have taken it further to hate crimes speaks for itself. Sorry, but that isn't your constitutional right to do hate crimes against anyone, not matter who you are. And my church (coming down from our Pope) does not support gay marriages because it is still wrong, regardless of if you believe it is a "state of being" or a choice.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 5:37PM
tim says:

Tell me Nicole, how would you defend the Catholic Church’s or Pope’s position on the inquisition and the innocent slaughter of the Native Central Americans and the Native South American Indians, or its recent pardon (after 500 years)for its persecution of Galileo for saying that earth revolves around the sun rather than the other way around? Didn't your god know better?
-Tim

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 6:09PM
Kevin says:

I'm just angry at your idiocy, and the idiocy of the people who fell for the lies you spewed forth during the campaign. Trying to figure out what you really believe is almost impossible since you write illogically, but I'll take a stab at it. First, obviously, gays are second class citizens at best and deserve the abuse the majority throws at them. Second, catholics and mormons deserve to dictate government policy notwithstanding the very clear separation of church and state. Third, gays don't deserve the right of free speech in addition to the right to happiness since you keep saying the lawful protest of a couple thousand people is some sort of hate crime. Fourth, you're a social imbecile since saying something things like we are sickening and should be ashamed of ourselves is apparently polite where you come from, whereas you label me a very angry person for responding in kind. And you would be ten times angrier if gays managed to pass a law prohibiting catholics from marrying, so you're just fooling yourself with silly false analogies. Our marrying has no impact on your church, beliefs, your beloved pope, but your ripping apart our families has a huge impact on us. That's the only correct analogy, and every time you talk about prop 8 somehow involving your freedoms you sound even more stupid. Prop 8 was a chance for bigoted rednecks to slap an underdog minority around, and I'm sure it felt good. I have never had the urge to do that, because your following your beliefs had nothing to do with me. But you attacked me, and then cry when we feebly protest. But this is a waste of time, since you apparently don't think gays have a right of free speech, and you're too indoctrinated to understand logic and debate. All that matters is some 100 year old guy in Rome dictating what you should think irrespective of the damage you cause and the hate you engender. Thank god there are plenty of catholics with enough intelligence to think for themselves, and who will help us overturn this injustice soon.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 7:46PM
Aletha says:

Tim,

You are pathetic. Mormons are not the only religion that do or did practice plural marriage AND oppose gay marriage.

It is quite obvious that you find nothing in your sad, sad existance to be sacred. Otherwise you would allow others to do so and go about your life.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 8:20PM
Kevin says:

Kevin,

I'm sorry you don't see the impact on our families that legalizing gay marriage would have.

What is that telling our children? It's okay to do what ever you want, no matter what God says or thinks? You don't have to worry about the commandments of God when casting your vote?

By choosing to follow what our churches and God tell us, we ARE protecting our families.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 8:26PM
Anonymous says:

Kevin,
God never said anything about gay marriage, you should read your bible again. There are a couple negative references about gays, that is true, but of course that is dwarfed by the many negative references to menstruation and combining various food groups that we long ago decided to ignore, despite what your god supposedly said thousands of years ago. But since gay marriage is very obviously never mentioned, I guess what you're really saying is that homosexuality should be outlawed, not gay marriage, since that would be consistent with your bible. So let's put that on the ballot next time, so we can execute the gays just like they do in Iran. That would at least be consistent with the bible, but don't forget to outlaw divorce and extramarital affairs, two things that really do affect straight marriage but you're all too lazy to get worked up about something that would actually affect you. But if we are a constitutional democracy, then the bible doesn't dictate the law, and if we're a theocracy, not just gay marriage, but homosexuality and thousands of other things need to be outlawed. So please explain to me what system you're operating under that only obsesses about gays loving each other and wanting to settle down and commit themselves to each other? Thanks in advance.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 8:41PM
tim says:

I believe life is sacred not outdated theologies. Take your own advice. What compels you to meddle? Let people live their own lives: including the Gay community. My reasons for speaking out are that a minority is being unjustly persecuted, and as part of the majority, it becomes the right thing to do.
As for your attack on me, I have a very good existence: a wife, children, and grandchildren who fight against prejudice and bigotry.
I would like to see all people have the same rights, privileges and opportunities that I and my family enjoy. I see no evil in the gay community, and I see no reason to persecute or cause them pain.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 10:16PM
tim says:

As for polygamy, I have no problem with that either. Whatever floats your boat, just don’t sink someone else’s. As for going about my life, it becomes difficult when I see injustices and hypocrisies.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 8 2008 @ 10:39PM
Kevin says:

Kevin,

You are right, the Bible doesn't say anything about gay marriage...just homosexuality. So does that mean that those who oppose gay marriage also think that homosexuality is wrong? Most likely. And just because you don't believe in it DOES NOT mean the Bible or other scripture doesn't apply to our day.

Since we live in a country where we are all given basic rights (marriage not being one of them), we obviously can't stop people from choosing a specific lifestyle. I am sure that if other issues came to a vote that we considered to be immoral or wrong, such as premarital sex or extramarital affairs, we would do our best to stand our ground. But gay marriage is the only measure we have been given the chance to oppose at the polls. Our only choice is to live according to God's will and teach our children the same.

So no, homosexuality will never come to a vote. But on Nov. 4 we were given the chance to vote on gay marriage. If we disagree with homosexuality, you can guarantee we are going to vote to stop gay marriage.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 5:39AM
tim says:

Aaaah, finally the truth comes. If you ran your campaign based on hatred of gays, instead of the false attacks on educations and the innocence of children then there would have been a different outcome. Therefore, your support of Prop. 8 was based on lies and hypocrisy. THE TRUTH COMES OUT. Thus the protest against Mormons is justified.
Brian, I hope you are still reading.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 8:56AM
Kevin says:

Kevin,

Like Tim, I find your comments revealing. Not surprising, since I know everyone on your side thinks like this, but revealing because it shows the duplicity of the prop 8 campaign. As has been said throughout this discussion, you couldn't win showing your overt hatred for gays, so you masquerade the issue in lies about freedom of religion and children, which are completely unrelated to gay marriage. Also, you're wrong about two things. First, it may be your god's will not to be gay, but that doesn't mean you have to ruin other people's lives by breaking up their families. You just do your god's will in your own life and leave the rest of us alone, that's how we all get along in this great country. And second, you make it seem like prop 8 just dropped down from the sky. If you want to put your theocracy into action, just start collecting signatures. Screwing with California's constitution is easy. But you chose gay marriage as the issue not because it just magically came up for a vote, but it was the one issue where you could muster enough lies to convince a majority to get it passed. The majority don't hate gays like you, but they were tricked into voting your way by scaremongering about their churches being closed and kids indoctrinated. That's been the consistent message of the no side in this thread, if we could have had an honest debate, there wouldn't be a problem, but your side is addicted to lying to fool enough people to pass hateful legislation. Eventually the truth will win out, though, and your desire for an Iran-style theocracy will never be fulfilled.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 10:38AM
Kevin says:

Kevin and Tim,

If you didn't already know the Mormons stance on homosexuality then you obviously don't know anything about Mormons. Disagreeing with someone is not hatred. If you think Mormons are taught to hate anyone, including gays, you are sorely mistaken. Mormons are taught that it's not being gay that is the sin but "acting out" on those tendencies that is the sin. I'm sure most churches who teach from the Bible would agree.

Also, if you think the 2% of California's population that are Mormon swayed the rest of the Yes voters, you aren't very smart. But if you insist on continuing to place all the blame at the feet of Mormons, please continue! We will definitely take the credit. It just simply means that we are a people who LIVE our religion. And because we live it and set good examples, others see the light and follow.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 2:18PM
kevin says:

Then you are calling your god an idiot, if he creates gays, who by definition have exclusively gay sex, but then condemns the sex act. Hate the sin, not the sinner, is just a fake polite way of saying you hate gays. But in any event it's irrelevant to this discussion. Even assuming this were true, why don't the mormons sponsor a proposition banning gay sex instead of gay marriage if that's your real beef? It's because then the rest of the population that you duped with your lies would know you for the bigots you are. So you pick on gay marriage and contribute massive amounts of money to defraud a slight majority of the population who frankly don't care about gays living loving, commiting relationships. But you lied so massively and tricked people to vote for your narrowminded interests. That's why we're pissed. And your closing statements are ridiculous. You did sway the majority, by lies, fraud, deceit, and I'm glad you're proud of that. But you're delusional if you think your actions make you a beacon of light that others want to emulate. Mormons are as ridiculed and hated as gays, none of your fundamentalist allies have the least interest in following your good example. And gays, who are a persecuted minority just as you used to be, could have been a natural ally, since we both benefit from the constitutional protections afforded minorities. But we're repulsed by your obsession with intruding into our family lives, and the sleazy way you manipulate people to achieve your bigoted ends.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 2:58PM
Kevin says:

Once again, it is clear that you do not understand Mormons. Mormons do not believe that man or woman is created gay. They may have to deal with the tendencies as a trial but that does not mean that God created them to go against his natural order of things. Why else would he say it is wrong in the Bible?

Also, you are so blind with rage that you don't read carefully. My statement of others following is in regard to this issue exclusively. You continue to say that Mormons are responsible for this measure getting passed when that is completely mathematically impossible. If you are unable to understand the simple arithmetic, then you must be saying that others chose to follow Mormons, ON THIS ISSUE, based upon their faith.

I also think it is quite funny that you keep saying that the Yes on 8 campaign was based on lies. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.

I'm sorry that you assume that because we disagree, we can't understand your side. That is just plain dumb. We see your point of view. You live in a world where you feel hated and disliked because of who you are. I get that and I do feel sorry for you. It must hurt and it must be hard. But, that still doesn' t mean that I am going to forget what God tells me.

Finally, we know that this issue will one day become moot. The country is making a very large shift to ungodliness. There will be a time when those of us that fear God more than man will be in the vast minority. So don't worry, you'll have your turn. Just don't expect us to come protest at your marriages when you do.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 3:33PM
Kevin says:

Of course I understand that mormons believe some silliness about gays choosing to be gay, or inflicted with the curse for unexplained reasons. But that's just wrong, just like creationism and other silly religious positions that completely contradict human experience and scientific fact. And as a country we can't keep making decisions based on religious delusions. If we did, we never would have freed the slaves based on mormon dogma about the curse of the dark skin.

Again, feel free to believe what you want to believe, worship whatever god you want to, but leave the rest of us out of it. That's the only way for us all to survive in the long term.

I have a PhD in mathematics, so I'm reasonably up to speed on arithmetic, thanks. But we both agree that mormons are too small to throw the election, so they must have influenced others to follow them down the path of bigotry. But you think it's your mystical aura of holiness that captivates others to discriminate, and I think it's your financing of 2/3 of a hate campaign that lies and manipulates people into voting your way. Before it started, a clear majority supported gay marriage. So you hid the issue behind church closures and kindergarten indoctrination, and scared enough gullible people to win narrowly.

Lastly, there is no truth whatsoever behind the lies of the prop 8 supporters. None. Zero. There is no need to make up silly hypotheticals about the supposed calamities that will befall california if gays are allowed to live peacefully. Just look at Canada, New England and Europe, and see the vast difference that gay marriage brought on mormons, children, whatever you like. It brought none, and made no difference, except that it made the small minority of gays happy, something you couldn't tolerate.

Your penultimate paragraph is condescending and also just plain wrong. If I feel hated, it's because you hate me, so don't feel sorry for me, just stop the hate. And god doesn't tell you to hate. Your god may tell you not to be gay, so go ahead and be straight, I won't mind in the least. But he doesn't tell you to hate us, so just stop and leave us alone.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 3:50PM
Kevin says:

Oh man, Kevin. You still just don't get it. And it's painfully clear that no matter what I say, you will never get it.

Why? Because you obviously don't believe in God. You incapable of understanding the views of a god-fearing person. You have to look at everything will scientific eyes, with no faith. Here's a news flash: God will never change. His views and teaching will never change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

So go ahead, say that our beliefs are old and delusional. I don't care. You aren't disgracing me, just God. And one day you'll have to stand up to Him and explain why you ignored and forgot Him. But that's not my problem.

And I'm sorry you think I hate you. I can't say enough that I don't. Hate the sin but love the sinner is a true and real belief. I believe that we are all children of God and that he loves us unconditionally, even when we make poor choices. I hope that one day you can feel the love of God and know that he cares for you no matter what problems he sent you here to earth to endure.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 4:19PM
kevin says:

Of course I get it, but I don't agree, there's a difference. I know from experience, science, reality etc that the world wasn't created in 6 days, and that I was born gay. If I believe in god, it would be a god that meant for me to be gay. Your god says gays are sinners. I think that means your understanding of god is wrong. You think it means my understanding of my own being, and science's understanding of reality, is wrong. We'll see who's right eventually.

But, again, this is totally irrelevant. The fact that we are debating theology in connection with a political issue should tell you how wrong it is. America is not becoming more "godless" as you said earlier, it's exactly the opposite. Since our founding we've operated under a very clear separation of church and state. Now the religious fanatics are chipping away at that, which is a very dangerous precedent. For now you can all exult in your ability to kick around gays, an easy target. But if you insist on putting everything up for a popular vote, you'll end up regretting it. The Christian fundamentalists are vastly larger than the mormons, and just as committed to dictating the rules according to their own playbook. And when they do, you'll be on the outside, looking in, just like us. So enjoy being the persecutor for a while, because it's not going to last.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 5:50PM
tim says:

Here is my concern Mormons. I read what elder Oaks has to say on Prop. 8 I know you recognize that he is an apostle and that he speaks on behalf of the church as a general authority, but his word is not the supreme word for your church. I know that honor resides solely with the presidency, and more specifically with the prophet. So until your prophet Thomas S. Monson says. “thus says the lord, Gay-Marriage is wrong” then and only then does it become a dead issue, it is no longer up for debate among members, and all Mormons must get in line. And this is according to your belief system. So far as I can read, is that the mandate has come from Apostle Dallin H. Oaks.
Your church teaches that god mandates do change, according to the times, dispensation, and circumstance you are in—else there would be no need for modern revelation as you believe. Modern revelation is given to you as a means of guiding you through crises; I can be understanding of that belief. I also understand that in the hereafter when you are brought before the judgment bar of Christ you will all be judged according to how you have judged others. If you have been compassionate, then on your judgment day, it will be one of compassion, but if you judge harshly, then your weaknesses/ sins too will be judged just as harshly with the same zeal that you condemn your brother.
Therefore, I ask this, if you are trying to make it to the celestial kingdom, for this is the trial of your time (you will be weighed and measured) how are you using your free agency? This question will be asked of you by Christ. Will you respond, “I blindly followed the brethren?” Remember, an apostle can go astray, and they have according to your church history, but God will never allow your prophet to lead you astray, before the prophet could do such a thing, He (Christ) would take his life. So tell me, has your prophet, President Thomas S. Monson made an official declaration, or is it just one of the 12 apostles: Dallin H. Oaks? For if it is just an apostle, you need to weigh the seriousness of your offenses and decisions, because your celestial existence hangs in the balance. If President Monson made this declaration, where can I read this—it would be an official statement—was it said in your October conference?
-Tim

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 7:07PM
Scripture says:

"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall separate you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake."

Luke 6:22

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 7:52PM
Kevin says:

Kevin,

You said it!: "Of course I get it, but I don't agree, there's a difference." This is what every Mormon on here as been trying to help you understand. So, I will allow you the belief that the world wasn't created in 6 days and you were born gay. But that means you must in turn allow me the right to disagree. And by so doing, allow me to make decisions based upon that disagreement.

Tim,

If one of the 12 said it, it holds the same power as the prophet. Your understanding of the leadership of our church is skewed.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 8:05PM
kevin says:

Tim,

We (the rational people) fully understand what you (the religious people) believe and how you act. That was never the issue! Go back and read the no on 9 comments. We will never argue that mormons should love gays; we don't care what you think of us. But we have two problems with you, which have been repeated again and again here, but I'll try one more time. First, look after your own affairs and stop breaking up our families. It's none of your business if two people who love one another want to commit to each other. We don't want to do it in a mormon temple, we don't want to convert any mormons to become gay, we don't want to molest your children, arrest your religious leaders, shut down your temples, any of that. We just want the same right to marry as anyone else. If the proposition forced churches to conduct these marriages, then of course you should oppose it. But as it is, you're just meddling in areas that don't concern you, or your salvation. They also interfere with the mainstream protestant churches who wish to maintain their freedom of worship by celebrating same sex marriages, so if anyone is interfering with freedom of religion, it's you, not the prop 8 opponents. And my second point, which I won't belabor because it never sinks in, is in the future your side should conduct themselves honorably and stop lying. Oppose gay marriages because you think gays are immoral and shouldn't be treated equally, or go further and outlaw us altogether. But don't hide behind claims that prop 8 is "pro-family" or to protect religious freedom or the purity of our children. It's none of these things, it's just an anti-gay amendment. Call it that, and try to win honestly for a change.

I've tried to be as clear as possible that these are the issues we're debating. I'm sure the response will be some variation of god telling you what to do, mormons are godly people, blah blah blah. That's what I keep getting back, and it's totally beside the point.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 8:20PM
tim says:

What the 12 say is not the final authority. Or else how would you explain when your church has excommunicated apostles in the past: Apostle Albert Carrington. How would you explain Judas, the original 12? How about when the Emma Smith and her son created the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints?
The 12’s words is not final, nor gospel when there is a prophet. When there is No prophet, then the quorum of the 12 lead under the direction of the senior apostle, (President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles) as was displayed when the prophet Joseph Smith was killed and the church was lead by Brigham Young until they reorganized the 1st presidency. This reorganization and transfer of power occurs every time your prophet dies. When your prophet dies, the presidency dissolves ( 1st, 2nd, or 3rd counselors cannot exist without a President/ Prophet). Power and authority is transferred back to the 12 until they reelected another prophet thus transferring power back to the first presidency. This argument occurred upon Joseph’s martyrdom, please look into your early church history and priesthood.
My question still remains, where can I read President Monson’s decree?
-Tim

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 9:46PM
tim says:

My advice to the Gay Community is to write to President Monson and ask him to make a stand. Make it formal: either for or against Gay Marriage. They are sheep without a shepherd. President Monson is of sound mind and I am sure he has lost sleep over this issue, and the Gay Community needs to know. For the Church that claims modern day revelation, it is a fair question. The Mormon/LDS Church has too much influence, power and money now not to make their intentions clear.

Posted On: Sunday, Nov. 9 2008 @ 10:04PM
tim says:

Mormons, you might believe that Monson doesn’t speak out “because gay marriage is obviously wrong,” but I’ll bet you my salvation to yours that it is because gay marriage is not a church issue, but a personal issue. If the full quorum of the 12 unanimously supports Elder Oaks, you have a problem. But notice it is one man and a seventy who is legal counsel for the church, who recently and publicly spoke out. Legal counsel and an apostle’s opinion does not constitute church doctrine or a quorum, at best it is church teaching/ preaching, a member’s opinion, which Oaks’ bases on his understanding of the compilation of church teaching, which amounts to an outburst that is not fully blessed/ sanctioned by the unanimous decision of the quorum of the 12 apostles, or the prophet. Therefore, does that not mean you follow blindly, forsaking your free agency, conscience, personal revelation? following blindly is the greatest sin—it’s mob thinking.
Your prophet has 3 choices: I. Condemn Gay Marriage; II. Embrace/ Accept Gay Marriage; III. Say or declare nothing. If the latter is the case, your prophet’s silence means it is a personal issue and that your God is watching to see how you will judge and behave. Mostly likely, Monson will choose the third option.
Furthermore if gay marriage is lawful, then it deserves protection and support under the law, which puts your church in a quandary and at a crossroads; Mormonism teaches that homosexuality just as fornication (sex before marriage) is a sin, but what if the sex (gay or straight) is in the bounds of holy matrimony—then it is no longer a sin. And there lies the problem. The church teaches that what a couple does (sexual acts) in the bonds of matrimony is sacred and beautiful when it builds upon the unity of the couple. Does the “coupling” mean man and woman only? What about those that practiced polygamy in the past: a man and his wives? …Gays couple as well…. You might say that it is not right and god meant coupling or to couple to be between a man and a woman, as it says in Genesis, but that was a long time ago. In the modern age, you do not need a man and women to copulate to have a child, technological advances, (that were not known, imagined or dreamed by the ancient or recent prophets) provide other means.
Then you might also say “family” is the core issue, and that the true nuclear family consists of a father and mother and that a child should not be raised in a home that has two mothers or two fathers, but that no longer applies today, even within your church. Many children have a biological mother and a step-mother, and a biological father and a step father—thus two moms, or two dads. So what is the problem when two loving men or to loving women want to make a solemn commitment to each other and perhaps raise a child? I have seen a woman, a member of your church who was found unfit, and the biological and the stepfathers together raised her/ their children. You might say, but not in the same household. But what is a household, your founding prophets and apostles who practiced polygamy tried to have each wife in their own household to avoid complications of jealousies and infighting.
If Mormonism is all about family, then what difference does the sex of the couple make as long as love abounds in a family? I have seen gay men and women taking active roles in raising children. I know of two lesbian women raising a highly intelligent and moral son. Are you willing to deprive their son the tender love that only these two mothers have been able to provide? If you ever hung out with gay men or women as you testify you do, you would know they are GOOD: at large an honest, brilliant, loving, witty, aesthetic community and who usually avoid open confrontations, which deserve our support and respect.
As a whole, our families and communities are in shambles because biological parents shirk responsibilities, and when you have a loving community (Gays) that want to help raise our children (that we give up) and their own with the full protection of the law—who are we (heterosexual community) to stand in their way when we are clearly failing, not as individuals, but as a whole.
-Tim

Posted On: Monday, Nov. 10 2008 @ 12:37PM
Julie says:

Mormons, tim gives you a theological out. “By allowing us to marry—it is no longer a sin.” Fine--whatever, if that helps you sleep, great, but I don’t give a flip. You ALLOW nothing. Marriage is our inalienable right. You should have thought of your theological bubbles earlier. Your problems with us could have been your solution. In my opinion, you have tarnished your good name. We will not rest; we will prevail for the argument is not theology, but Law. To the 1% of mormons out there that back us, thank you.

Posted On: Monday, Nov. 10 2008 @ 3:09PM
Lyle Palaski says:

How many times in the posts above did I read that "I have many gay friends or family and I love them and I wouldn't do anything to hurt them, but from a religious conviction I have to vote Yes?"

And people see no contradiction in this? And people have no knowledge of religious history that shows time and again religions have been wrong about issues and changed their doctrines?

Posted On: Tuesday, Nov. 11 2008 @ 8:50PM
Sam Snater says:

Interesting how in the article people chanted "equal rights", but then Sean Hemeon is holding a poster that says "Unfair...." . It is impossible in an imperfect world with imperfect people to ever have any system that is both fair and equal. Pick one Sean

Posted On: Friday, Nov. 14 2008 @ 6:01PM
Fungus says:

Hi Mormons,
The 1st and 2nd Elders of your church who received the Melchizedek priesthood from the original 12 apostles: Peter, James, and John were Joseph Smith, who was killed, and Oliver Cowdery who was Excommunicated

Of your original 12 apostles, 7 of the 12 were excommunicated, two were killed, and one dropped from the quorum, and only 2 remained faithful.

1. Lyman E. Johnson: Excommunicated
2. Brigham Young
3. Heber C. Kimball
4. Orson Hyde: Dropped from the Quorum
5. David W. Patten: Killed in 1838
6. Luke S. Johnson: Excommunicated
7. William E. M'Lellin: Excommunicated
8. John f. Boynton: Excommunicated
9. Orson Pratt: Excommunicated
10.William Smith: Excommunicated
11. Thomas P. Marsh: Excommunicated (President of the Quorum)
12. Parley P. Pratt, Assassinated in 1887

So Mormons, do you still think your apostles can’t blunder?

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 15 2008 @ 10:06PM
Lael says:

I want to preface this by saying to those that call our Presidents and Prophets flawed. We have a saying, people are not perfect but the gospel is. There was only one perfect man that walked the earth and he died on a cross an innocent man.

I don't get it. You preach freedom and love and tolerance. Yet do you realize that Latter Day Saint's only make up 2% of the population in California? Other Christian organizations donated much much more then the members of the Church. As for the person that said the Church tried to "hold" back woman. Utah was one of the FIRST states to allow women to vote. The Church did not discriminate against women or civil rights.

Why is it that gay rights activists want others to accept them for who and what they are, but when someone doesn't agree they want to act like two years olds and throw temper tantrums.

You want others to accept your beliefs and way of life but you refuse to accept anyone that believes anything other then you do. How is that tolerance, it’s hard to ask others for something that you are unwilling to practice yourself.

You do not hold the exclusive key to freedom.
Marriage is NOT a civil right.
You have the right to spend your life with whom ever you choose.

You are free to believe and practice what you want. Just as I and everyone else is.

You want to blame someone for the passing of Prop. 8. Blame yourselves. Blame the gay population for not turning out to vote, for not supporting Anti Prop 8 programs.

We live in a country where if you don't like a law, do the work to get it changed. Do not play the “everybody hates me, no body loves me” card.

NOT everyone believes what you do. Our nation was founded on that principle.

Freedom to believe, as you want to believe.

Eventually you will have to stand back and accept that the California and Florida’s populations stood up to be counted. Even if you don’t like the outcome you have to accept the voice of the people.

The part of Prop 8 that most people took offense to was the portion where teachers in Public Schools were going to be required to teach about homosexuality.

Schools are for teaching Math, Science, Reading, Literature, Fine Arts Programs, Public Speaking and history. They ARE NOT FOR TEACHING MORALS OR HOMOSEXUAL/HETROSEXUAL/SEXUAL LIFESTYLES.
Our current education system is failing in those required areas as it is, we are no longer the best educated nation in the world, we are doing so poorly at teaching our children the basics that we had to create a new law to make sure that “No child got left behind”. But there again you have to do the work to earn the credit and the victory.
Things like sex education, homosexuality and other moral issues should not be taking away from an already limited classroom education.

Those things should be taught in the home. Parents should be teaching their children to be loving, kind and accepting of others even if they are different, no matter what that difference is. You can teach tolerance with out teaching about homosexuality or any variation there of.


The membership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not mindless robots that are programmed to do what ever the Church Presidency tells them to do. We all have the God given gift of Free Will. We all have minds and a moral compass. Ours just points a different direction then yours does. We were not duped, nor misled into supporting or voting for Prop. 8. Support of, and donation towards the passing of Prop. 8 was each person's OWN decision.

Let me get one thing clear. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints neither I nor any other member have ever been told that they MUST vote a certain way on any election issue. We have been encouraged to vote for and support polices and officials that we feel fit with in our moral compass. Not one single member of the LDS Church was forced to support or vote for any specific cause. We were asked to take a moral stand. That stand just happens to hold that marriage is a heterosexual right and institution.

My question is this why is it when the population votes conservative, that they are labeled as being "duped" "misled" "uninformed" "ignorant" "Bigots". But when voting liberal it's the "right" thing to do? How can it be that there are so many people in the world who are ignorant, bigots and uninformed?

You DO NOT have the right to teach your way of life to my children. I will teach my children about other lifestyles. I will teach my children when and if I feel it is appropriate and I will do it with love and tolerance that the gay population did not show to Latter-Day Saints. There were Elder and Sister Missionaries that were accosted, put in fear for their safety, these are men, women and families who due to serving a mission probably don’t even LIVE in California.

Where are love, acceptance and tolerance of lifestyle that you preach? Those of you that marched on the LA Temple how are you going to tell future generations that after years and years of preaching and fighting for love, peace and tolerance you chose to accost Sister/Elder Missionaries whom choose to give two years of their life to serve a mission teaching what they believe. If they knocked on your door and you did not want to hear what they had to say, they would say "Thank You" turn from your doorstep and leave. They wouldn't go and get a thousand other missionaries and come back to your home and yell and scream horrible things at you and your friends, they wouldn’t call you ugly names. No they would go home and pray that someday someone will open your heart just to listen. You don't have to believe in God, or organized religion but you should respect my right to believe what I do, and respect yourself enough to allow others to believe other then you do if you ever want love, tolerance and understanding for your way of life.

Compared to many places in the world the United States is a pretty accepting nation. Homosexuals can openly show affection. Personally I feel that certain displays of affection should not be done in public. Homosexual couples can live together, they can even adopt children, hold "life partner" medical insurance policies and be united in civil unions. Why is it so important for that union to be defined with the word Marriage? If you look up the word marriage using Dictionary.com you will get the following definitions of marriage:

1. The social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.
2. The state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: a happy marriage.
3. The legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as husband and wife, including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage.
4. A relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage; homosexual marriage.
5. Any close or intimate association or union: the marriage of words and music in a hit song.
6. A formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.
7. A blending or matching of different elements or components: The new lipstick is a beautiful marriage of fragrance and texture.
8. Cards. A meld of the king and queen of a suit, as in pinochle. Compare ROYAL MARRIAGE.
9. A piece of antique furniture assembled from components of two or more authentic pieces.
10. Obsolete. The formal declaration or contract by which act a man and a woman join in wedlock.

Origin:
1250–1300; ME mariage

Shouldn't you be lobbying insurance companies and Sates to recognize that when you are sick, dying that your life mate has the right to do as your will states? Forcing and pushing and shoving homosexual "marriage" down the rest of the nations throats isn't the way to get what you want. Do you think that because your "love" and partnerships are labeled "Marriage" that your going to have better lives. That all your woes are going to go away?

What do my husband and I get as a heterosexual partnership that you don't?
Umm lets see?
Higher tax brackets see you don't get the big tax breaks until you own a home and can itemize your taxes.

Higher insurance premiums for "Couple or Family" plans.

If one of us is terminally sick we can choose to pull the plug and make medical decisions.
That worked great for that woman down in Florida.
Btw a Power of Attorney


If you love is as strong and true and your lifestyle is a “genetic” thing or a choice thing it shouldn’t matter, it seems as if the majority of the homosexual community is looking for justification for how they are living, they are looking for validation. If you feel that you are making the right choice then no matter what the laws say, or what label you get to use to define your relationship then your doing the what you feel is right. Why do you need the world to bow down to your whims and wants?

Posted On: Tuesday, Nov. 18 2008 @ 9:14PM
John Doughtermier says:

Will the health reform pass. Will President Obama eventually sign it? What is the consensus? I believe it does not have long term care insurance included in it.

Posted On: Saturday, Nov. 28 2009 @ 6:16PM

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