Can Music Critics Who Revere Dirty Projectors, Arcade Fire and Vampire Weekend Ever Begin to Understand the Genius of Tyler the Creator's Goblin?

Mrgrimm

just say "IT'S BRILLIANT" and when anyone asks "Why?" yell "YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!" - it's hipster rap.

lawmusicmoderator

See above: "a soulful, honest, punk-as-fuck statement of someone who put himself and his talent out there and is not trying to get featured in alt-indie-comedy soundtracks or NPR driving-time radio. This is someone who shits on everything that college and academic (and pseudo-academic) American culture have to offer, and has created an entire alternative universe out of sheer talent and determination."

thanks for your comment!

Square

[This comment has been flagged as abusive and inappropriate.]

Drewsef

I remember for a while, every music blog I read that had even a slightly dismissive mention of Adam Lambert would be bombarded with trolls screaming about how Adam Lambert is great, no matter what anyone says, and that the lame old music writers who use too many big words could never understand his self-evident greatness and should thus never write about him. That’s pretty much how this reads, except with Tyler’s name instead. See, the difference here is that you’re a music writer – your job is to write about music. So even if you want to convey the notion that “Goblin’s” greatness is so immense that it’s above petty things like criticism and scholarly theorizing (which is a valid opinion to have), as a music writer, you should try to explain why. Pose an argument, develop a thesis beyond “Tyler is awesome LOL,” and then elaborate a little on that. Tyler makes strange, disturbing, inventive music designed to get a reaction – and he clearly succeeded here, with a range of opinions both condemning him and wildly praising him – and for that reason, Tyler is exactly the kind of artist who probably should be written about and debated. If he weren’t so interesting, he wouldn’t be, right? If all this hand-wringing were over a Ludacris album or something, then maybe you’d have a point. (Speaking of which, aside from Lou Reed’s speculation on Christgau’s strange bedroom activities, a big part of his rant that you cite was that he spent a year making an album, only to have Christgau just shrug it off with a B+. In other words, he felt his music deserved some actual analysis and criticism, instead of just a knee-jerk reaction.) And more fundamentally, in what universe is it wrong, or even strange, to like Arcade Fire and OFWGKTA equally?

Jimmy James

Could you tell me what Lou Reed's quote was? I'm still waiting for Gustavo/Lawmusicmoderator to tell me because I'm not searching for a quote that a author declines to include despite it being integral to his argument, no matter how poorly that argument is.

Jimmy James1

For the record, I'm a huge OFWGKTA fan. And I think Goblin is a really good record, if not a little flawed because of a few songs that should've been cut and the inevitability of being a little disappointed in a release when you've spent months looking at his previous work under a microscope. But I have no idea what in the hell Gustavo is saying in his article. That's the reason why he won't name names.

As for "People pissed off because NPR won't play Goblin" WHAT? NPR plays music for white middle-class liberals between 35-55. Of course NPR is going to cover OFWGKTA and their importance and explosive influence in pop culture right now, but why would they play violent rap made for teenagers and kids in their early 20s? I listened to All Things Considered talk to the author of that 800 page book about rap written by academics that came out last year. Where's Gustavo's blog post about NPR being too scared to play Eminem and The Geto Boys?

lawmusicmoderator

yeah, totally pwned. Anonymous strikes again! swag

Axshun04

Gustavo= pwned

lawmusicmoderator

Yeah. Fuck that Gustavo guy! He's dumb and his opinions are stoopid.

Forthelatoids

Thank you Jimmy James for pointing those links out. LA Weekly's articles on music for a long while now have been boring, unoriginal, and uninformative. The only thing the LA Weekly is good for is the Music Show listings. The articles and blogs do not reflect the amount of music that is really going on around LA. Go read LA Record

lawmusicmoderator

yes--go read LA Record! We do that all the time!

a name

I agree with most of these comments as well, and I would love to see a well written reply to Jimmy James' comment(s).

Jimmy James1

I eagerly await your reply of "But none of these specifically say WE DISCOVERED Odd Future" if you ever decide to publish my post.

http://blogs.laweekly.com/west...

"Last week we ran Caroline Ryder's inside-story profile of local hip-hopGreat Weird Hopes, the Odd Future gang (aka OFWGKTA).

It was a really important storythat was noticed by everyone who should have noticed around the world and wethink it helped the crew get the attention they deserve."

http://blogs.laweekly.com/west...

"When Goldenvoice finally decides torelease the final lineup, we're pretty sure it's gonna include LA rapsensations Odd Future, a band the LA Weekly was first tocover locally."

http://blogs.laweekly.com/west...

"Too many words have beenwritten on the Los Angelescollective (yes, we started it)."

Forthealtoids

lawmusicmoderator

yes--go read LA Record! We do that all the time!

lawmusicmoderator

ps: the moderation has nothing to do with the content of your post. It's an automatic spam filter whenever anyone adds direct links.

Jimmy James

"Now, other reviews from the little fraternity of "the gentlemen of the press" are trickling in (look them up--we're not gonna name names). They use a lot of words and they go at it like a coroner with a scalpel."

Could you name these names because nobody has a clue what you're talking about. Metacritic has Goblin at 72/100 with 14 positive reviews, 4 middle of the road reviews, and 1 bad review. What in God's name are you talking about with "the gentlemen of the press"?

"But Goblin is alive, so autopsies are not necessary."

OK... why? I'm not agreeing with your or disagreeing, but care to explain why you think the album is so "alive" (again, what does that even mean?)

"What was that thing Lou Reed said about Robert Christgau in Take No Prisoners?"

I don't know. You tell me. Do you expect your readers to look up a quote that you use to prove your point?

"In other words, Can music critics who revere Dirty Projectors, Arcade Fire and Vampire Weekend ever begin to understand the genius of Tyler the Creator's Goblin?"

Why not? Those same critics (I assume you mean Pitchfork) are the same people who championed OFWGKTA since fall of last year after the LA Weekly article. And people who like Arcade Fire can't like Odd Future? What a dumb sentence you just wrote under your own name on the internet (that means it's going to last forever).

"Congratulations, Tyler. You pissed off the squares. Well done."

Who are the squares and how did Tyler piss them off? Are the squares NBC, Billboard Magazine, SXSW, the NY Times, the LA Times, NME, MTV, and all the other members of "the establishment" that have celebrated their music?

I expect garbage from Dennis Romero and Simone Wilson, but you've taken the LA Weekly to a whole new low. Just because it's a blog doesn't mean you're not being paid to write intelligent pieces of writing.

Guest

This is so lazily written. I have no problem with what Gustavo's saying--in fact, I want to know more. But you can't just say "no, they won't get it," and then not go into why. Otherwise it just reads like a text to a friend, some masturbatory statement you don't need to bother to explain because, like, those who are supposed to get it will. Come on dude, remember the five "Ws" of journalism (they apply to blogging too).Maybe this is why he stepped down...

Mountain Goat

gustavo turner's work is usually "lazily written," what the hell is new here

lawmusicmoderator

Is it "B-" lazily written? or "C+" lazily written?

Thanks for your comment!

lawmusicmoderator

ok--we'll take you up on your challenge:

Who: several major critics around the country who are assessing "Goblin" as a college term paper, giving it "grades" and complaining about its supposed shortcomings ("should have been shorter," "too ambitious," "too unfocused," "too focused," etc.) like schoolmarms.Where: as we said, we're not gona single anyone out, but if you've been following the critical reception of "Goblin," we're sure you'll find them. (Hint: some of them were prominently published by LA Weekly's sister publications within our parent company).When: As Fatboy Slim once said, right about nowWhat: their failure to recognize "Goblin" for what it is: a soulful, honest, punk-as-fuck statement of someone who put himself and his talent out there and is not trying to get featured in alt-indie-comedy soundtracks or NPR driving-time radio. This is someone who shits on everything that college and academic (and pseudo-academic) American culture have to offer, and has created an entire alternative universe out of sheer talent and determination.(In this Tyler's not unlike the Insane Clown Posse, or the early Wu-Tang. He is, however, COMPLETELY unlike that beloved hip-hop icon of those critics, Mr. Pseudo-Collegian himself, Kanye West.)Also, Tyler is an amazing graphic designer and one of the best all-around conceptualists since the RZA.Why: it's fun!

Guest

"This is someone who shits on everything that college and academic (and pseudo-academic) American culture have to offer"Gustavo, since you have both an MA and a PhD from Harvard, I'd like to know more about why that strikes a chord with you....was there something in your experience that lead you to reject that as well, or is it just sheer admiration for his nonconformist boldness? Or something else?

lawmusicmoderator

ZOMG! You know how2Google! Amazing

Lauren

I heard about Tyler on NPR. http://www.npr.org/blogs/there...

lawmusicmoderator

Yes, as a Music NEWS item. But will they ever play their music along with Dirty Projectors, Broken Bells, etc. Unlikely.

Drewsef

Well, no, of course not. Because musically, NPR is programmed to be a middle-of-the-road, uncontroversial indie-rock sort of station. But what does that have to do with “Goblin’s” merits? NPR would also probably never play Britney Spears, or Slayer, or Mahler, or Celine Dion next to Broken Bells either.

lawmusicmoderator

wouldn't it be great if they did, though?

(and, by the way, huge props to our often-teased Jason Bentley for hiring Henry Rollins and making sure he's allowed to play Slayer next to Mahler if he so chooses!)

TYPO

dunno enuff about tyler or odd future, but punk is a beautiful thing, especially if it's sincere, earnest, and not just some hormonal outrage or used for some shock/glam value.

Guest

What a stupid article. Dirty Projectors are my favorite band in the world, I thought Bastard was great as well. The two are completely unrelated and the author's approach is a miserable way of trying to accuse someone of not understanding an artist. None of the "squares" were "pissed off"; a lot of reviewers just thought Goblin wasn't very good. LA Weekly has been claiming to have "discovered" Odd Future for a while now, it's getting old. LA Weekly is a music magazine, and parading around in celebration of discovering the next big thing who was already discovered by the time LA Weekly got around to it is immature and reflects poorly on the paper.

lawmusicmoderator

LA Weekly is not a music magazine. And if you can take a second to find the piece where we "claimed to have 'discovered' Odd Future," that'd be great. It's gonna be hard, though, cause we never claimed such a thing. We did publish the first feature about the band in LA and among the alt-weeklies in the US (the Village Voice reprinted our story).

Thanks for your comment.

Jimmy James

http://blogs.laweekly.com/west..."we were the first publication to devote an extensive feature to them"

http://blogs.laweekly.com/west..."Last week we ran Caroline Ryder's inside-story profile of local hip-hop Great Weird Hopes, the Odd Future gang (aka OFWGKTA).It was a really important story that was noticed by everyone who should have noticed around the world and we think it helped the crew get the attention they deserve."http://blogs.laweekly.com/west..."When Goldenvoice finally decides to release the final lineup, we're pretty sure it's gonna include LA rap sensations Odd Future, a band the LA Weekly was first to cover locally."http://blogs.laweekly.com/west..."Too many words have been written on the Los Angeles collective (yes, we started it)."

lawmusicmoderator

I don't see any claim of "discovery" anywhere.

We were the first to write about them in LA, and we were the first to write about them extensively in the US (they were written up by The Wire in the UK before us, and by Fader--I believe, or maybe Filter--with a very brief item).

(The prose of the second post is a little hyperbolic for my taste, on second reading, but what are you gonna do. It's the web.)

Jimmy James

There are many blog posts made on West Coast Sounds where writer bragged about LA Weekly discovering OFWGKTA. At least 3, maybe 5.

lawmusicmoderator

And you haven't linked to them because...? Because they only exist in your imagination. We've pointed out (correctly) we were the first LA publication to feature them. As far as I know, we've never claimed we "discovered" Odd Future or anyone else. We're not in the talent scouting business.

Swag.

mattcornell

Tegan & Sara. A couple of "pissed off squares."

http://teganandsara.com/news/a...

lawmusicmoderator

That's a really interesting post by the Tegan & Sara camp (not sure who actually wrote it).

From the post: "Maybe it’s because in this case I don’t think race or class actually has anything to do with his hateful message but has EVERYTHING to do with why everyone refuses to admonish him for that message."

But A LOT of people are talking about the lyrics, and many are doing so to condemn him. I don't see how "everyone" refuses to admonish him.

And more importantly--"admonish him"? Tegan & Sara's post is a perfectly coherent opinion about Tyler's lyrics and the debate they bring up is relevant and interesting. But what exactly are the channels to "admonish" an artist? Is the music community like a school? Why do so many people (for whatever reason) want to grab Tyler by the ears and take him back to school?

mattcornell

I guess the point is that this blog post, like much of the gushing praise for Odd Future fails to acknowledge how troubling Tyler's views and his lyrical content are. It obscures why many of the "squares" are actually upset.

You laud him for "pissing off the squares" and draw a false equivalence with bands like Dirty Projectors and Arcade Fire, who, as far as I know, do not fill their songs with rape fantasies, and their Twitter feeds with homophobic and misgoynist slurs. It's not just about the lyrics, for which a case might be made. It's also about the attitudes Tyler espouses when he's NOT rapping.

For a more nuanced take on the issues raised by OF's embrace by the critical cognoscenti, I suggest this piece by B. Michael, who is something of a reluctant fan.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/a...

Axshun

No, they said the same thing about a million other rappers. That sentence is pure cut-and-paste. Truth is, if the media, gentlemen or not, would just get off their nuts they WON'T fall victim to the hipster hype machine that chews bands up, spits them out and moves on to the next one. Toss em a little appreciation for their effort and calm the fuck down.

Axshun

Ok, but can you give us a compliment about the album that has something intelligent to say? Something that doesn't sound like you're just sucking his balls like every other hipster blog?

lawmusicmoderator

"It's a fantastic feat by a true artist who'll be around for a while. Solid, sober and soulful. A kind of stream-of-consciousness poetry up there with the best."

Axshun

...generic ball sucking

lawmusicmoderator

they said the same thing about Jesus, you know