L.A. Jazz Clubs Need More Loud Drunks

There wont be too many drunk girls at this event. But there will be lots a talent and a great vibe!http://www.facebook.com/events...

Yeah, I believe this writer is totally full of feces.  Since when does respect and openness to an art form= tedium?  Jazz is not dead--jazz is just dying as a public art form.  Is that really the fault of the jazz musicians, and the meaniehead bouncers who kick out witty, talkative, knowledgable drunk boors from a club that is promoting a vital music?  Do you think jazz is any less happening just because people like Justin Bieber more?  Go see the Kurt Rosenwinkel standards trio, Charles Altura, Branford Marsalis, or Kneebody, then tell me there is no innovation, no life, no passion in modern jazz.  Tell me that listening to some drunk pinhead is more relevant and awe-inspiring.  

Really cool piece. Definitely a conversation worth having. I help curate an event in DTLA that offers a louder environment for the chatty jazz crowd. It's a lounge type atmosphere with dj's playing jazz records. It's our little sanctuary to drink, talk about music, and not take things too seriously. The best part about this kind of environment is getting cheers for playing a grant green, or david axelrod, record!

I agree but it's such a difficult topic. Did anyone see this article about venues in LA? Should we go with the flow or try to change the scene all together? Mike Fieldjazz trumpet (Canada)http://www.mikefieldjazz.comLA CD Release @ Typhoon - April 24LA CD Release @ Nola's - April 28 

Mr. O'Connell's article has a number of disturbing assumptions lying just beneath the surface:

• Cultural forms do or should not evolve. ("Jazz got its start in brothels and bars.")

All types of music have their origins in a particular social context, only for that context to change with the passage of time. The fact that jazz was "born in a brothel" (and assuming for the moment that no one in any brothel ever listened to the music) does not mean the brothel is now the primary listening space for that music. Indeed, I'd hazard a guess that, to the extent that brothels still exist, jazz is not featured prominently on their playlists! Why, then, should the club listening experience of the early 21st century be like that of the early 20th century brothel?

• Education and the desire to listen deeply = snobbishness and pretense. ("Regardless of what snotty [today's "snooty," btw] musicians might think…," "over-educated musicians expect silence and awe…whether it is deserved or not," "second only to classical snobs are jazz snobs," "they've seemingly pushed away anyone…[other] than a few scattered intellectuals.")

In our profoundly anti-intellectual culture, we reflexively flinch at anything that smacks of learning and reflection. We support politicians not for their ability to think deeply, but because we'd want to have a beer with them. We turn to televised news not to hear calm reflection about the world's events and insightful analysis, but to see "beautiful" people offering shallow observations, all too often laced with name-calling these days. What could it truly mean to be "over-educated," as if education were akin to dressing for an occasion or applying for a job at a certain salary level? One might over-think any given situation, but that's not the same as being (over-)educated. And when did thinking become synonymous with pretense?

We do, as a culture, connect with the proverbial "working man." We can trust "Joe the Plumber," because he's honest, real, and not one of those 'intellectuals.' Ironically, in making Mr. O'Connell's (and many, many others') argument, one foists a profound snobbishness upon the very group we feign to celebrate (talk about pretense!). How can we at this time in human history argue that it's the sole province of a few "snobs" to listen deeply to music and—dare I say it?—reflect on the experience? While access to education in formal institutions is fraught with issues of financial inequity, access to jazz (or any music) is, today, available to all. And all with functioning ears and brains can think and listen. And all who think and listen can reflect. There's nothing snooty or pretentious about it. To claim otherwise is an insult to humanity.

• Enjoyment = obstreperous behavior, deep engagement = tedium. ("…noisy drunks…bring a bit of energy to a sometimes-sullen genre," "…people with unbridled enthusiasm should go somewhere else…," "…the jazz club…experience is…akin to a church service," "If the sign reads 'entertainment' that means we can bring our friends and have a good time. If the sign reads 'art' that means we can show up alone, nurse a single beers and furrow our brows in silent reverie.")

The age-old art/entertainment dichotomy rears its head once again, though now to shore up a rather shoddy argument. If we're gonna get all feng shui about our Dionysian pleasures, let's ask: What kind of energy does the noisy drunk bring to a club? Is it really an infectious enthusiasm for the music that's being cruelly constrained by snobbish mores? That would be nice, but experience rarely if ever bears out that view. On the flip side, anyone with more than a fleeting experience of jazz clubs with a deep tradition of the music knows full well that all sorts of "unbridled" responses do happen: "Yeah!," "Play it!," "Woo!," and other such vocal exclamations are as frequent as the mid-tune and even mid-solo bursts of applause. (And, of course, let's forgive Mr. O'Connell's overlooking of the many churches in which outbursts of ecstatic vocalization or other expressions are the norm.) And, with *very* few exceptions, these outbursts (extremely Dionysian, I'm here to tell ya'!) are not only tolerated by jazz musicians, they're welcomed openly and enthusiastically! Asking a drunk person who's shouting irrelevancies not to shout (or to leave) is not in any way the same thing as stifling genuine expression of appreciation of the music, nor does it remove a source of good energy in the room.

For one final point of comparison, let's turn to a cultural arena of Dionysian nature that's far, far, far more "relevant," statistically speaking, than the jazz club: The sports arena. Football, soccer, basketball, baseball. We celebrate that one can go, relax, get drunk, shout at the players/coaches/refs/umps. So why can't we get drunk and be noisy at a jazz club? Well, you see, sports players are "working men" (and women!), and they work in space and movement through it. Shouting's generally fine (of course, tennis is a big exception here), but just try going out on the field during a football play. Do you think you'll be tolerated, or thrown out? And if you were thrown out, would it be by those "sullen, over-educated snobs" who run the NFL and don't want you to "have a good time?"

As it turns out, jazz musicians are also "working men" (and women!), but we happen to work in sound. That's our medium. So when someone in the audience is so loud that we can't communicate and do our jobs, either through sheer interference of sound or its attendant effect on our focus, we have just two choices: crank it up! (rock, hip-hop, house, etc.) or establish a cultural practice (mores about audience behavior) by which that form of music can happen (jazz, classical). To rant against an attempt at keeping one (small) corner of our richly diverse musical culture alive and thriving by asking a few disorderly drunks in a jazz club to pipe down or leave shows a remarkable and disturbing disdain for the human desire to create and have different experiences.

I once had a club owner tell me between sets on the very "Jazz and Martini" night that he created, presumably to draw in a different crowd than he got on weekends: "I don't give a f**k what kind of music you're playing. If my customers can't hear themselves talk, that's a problem!" Do we really want to relegate all forms of human musical expression to being sonic wallpaper behind talking and drunken revelry?

I for one am glad that we have such varied forms and genres of art that allow for different kinds and expressions of ecstatic pleasure. I hope the disingenuous-snobs-masquerading-as-anti-snobs never succeed in reducing them all to the same kind of experience.       

Obviously the writer doesn't know much about jazz.  Just like the obnoxious people who talk through a set, the writer doesn't have a clue.

This is an effed up article.  What live music (especially jazz) needs is more appreciation not more drunks you dope

HERPADERPADERPADERP. IM SORRY I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA. STOP BLAMING THE WRITER AND BLAME YOURSELVES

Sean, this is such a poorly constructed argument. You swipe at snotty musicians, classical music, over educated musicians, suburban kids, when your premise has to do with a single club's policy. You're all over the place. The Blue Whale is the ONLY jazz club in town that will ask people to quiet down if they are distracting listeners. That you cite Jax as a high standard just shows the ineptitude of your argument. When was the last time you reviewed a show there? When was the last time anyone reviewed a show there? People go there for shitty food, not to hear music. Further, you seem to be equating a handful of drunk girls who clearly were not aware of the music as anything but background ambience for their chatter, with a potential audience that is offended by the pretentions of actually giving a shit about the music. Like these people would like jazz if only you didn't have to pay attention to it. There are PLENTY of places in LA that cater to exactly what you are talking about: Vibrato, Vitello's, Bandera, Jax, Charlie O's when it was around, the Lighthouse, etc. Go there if you you don't care about having a quality listening experience. Please, go there.

I can appreciate wanting to make Jazz more accessible but just because it's entertainment does not give people the licence to do whatever they want.  It's like going to a movie.  The most annoying thing is to be in the middle of a movie and have someone spoil it by talking loudly to their friends, texting with their super bright screen etc...  People paid to go see the movie - not to hear your witty commentary.  In a similar way people go to see Jazz to hear the musicians play and not just to hang out.  All that being said, you don't have to sit there like a dead person or even be quiet all the time.  I just saw Frank Vignola play out at John Pisano's Guitar Night and he led a lot of audience interaction from spewing Godfather quotes to singing along to a gypsy rendition of 'Killing Me Softly' it was a ton of fun.  On the other hand, I also recently got to see Esperanza Spalding and was rendered speechless the entire show, jaw-dropping-speechless.  So not to sound like a jazzer but I believe it's all about the context.  

This is a completely stupid piece of writing!  I myself am a highly trained musician in the jazz arts, and can completely sympathize the frustration of being in a stuck up, overly serious environment.  Trust me, i get it.  But to talk about how it's a problem that some drunk bitches got kicked out of a club?  C'mon, it's a listening environment, not a 'I'm a drunk piece of ass, wanna fuck me?' environment.  Just figure out the difference and stop wasting your time writing this shit.  You think you broke some serious ground saying jazz isn't popular with people out on the town wanting to get entertained?  Big thoughts, man, big thoughts.

This jazz band have stage diving and crowd surfing at their shows, and it works... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

We're all relics because we are talking about jazz in the 21st century.

The article isn't a call for talking blindly during performances. Anyone who read beyond the first paragraph should have picked up on that.

What we've lost is an interaction with the music being created. Every performer in this town is telling us what we should like and it is generally assumed, if we don't agree, we aren't hip. The public has expressed their opinion on modern jazz by going somewhere else to listen to music that isn't expecting them do much more than enjoy themselves.

A rollicking belch at at a Keith Jarrett concert would probably not go over very well. I know that. And I respect that.

But does every

fucking jazz show have to be so uptight? I'm tired of jazzbos trying to educate me. I just want to crank up the volume and have a good time.

I can also do without people chatting during a performance, thank you very much. I go to listen to the music, not to people blah blah blah-ing. 

Seems a tad childish to ridicule the whole jazz scene, because poor you did not agree with what happened. 

People maybe should learn again to just keep quiet every now and then, especially when the circumstances call for it. (They can still tweet, in case their attention span... where was I?)

The bands/musicians, on the other hand, could also learn from some of the pros: when a table gets loud, just start playing very quietly - and it will take care of itself. 

First, thanks for covering jazz at all. But I have to disagree. I've been to shows that were out of control, people were dancing, clapping, and cheering along. Then I've been to shows where everyone is silently enraptured by the players. I have no idea what the scene was like where these girls were asked to leave, but I've found myself relieved when yappy types are told to hush or go. When a show is more like the latter there, I wouldn't say it's snobby, or lacking, just different, and I enjoy both, somedays I prefer one to the other, but I never wish one away.

Perhaps I'm some relic and alone in that sentiment though.

Nice one, All the fun has certainly been taken out of the music...As mentioned, Jass became popular in the Jass or whore houses of New Orleans.It's comical, how some can be so serious about nothing...

Did it ever occur to the talky set (which El Lay jazz clubs are in fact loaded with, compared to NYC), that the majority of people who just drove an hour through traffic and paid a cover charge are really NOT interested in hearing your drunken (or even sober) blather from the next table...they came to hear the musician play...NOT you...and no...you're really NOT more important.  There's a time and place for blowing in a loud club...and if that's your preference...go find those places, but save yourself for them, and don't ruin the evening of the people sitting around you otherwise.

So true. Some of the most talented and mind-blowing jazz musicians I have seen played in a tiny crowded beer-on-tap and some damn good fries dive called Ortlieb's in Philadelphia.

Compare to: the Swedish jazz "legend" I saw in Melbourne Australia who interrupted his between-numbers monologue to tell me to pipe down. I wouldn't be talking if I wasn't bored of your elevator tines, douche.